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WWII Dodge VC, VF, WC 1/2 ton, WC 3/4 ton, including weapons carriers, carryalls, command cars, ambulances, & WC 1-1/2 ton 6X6

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Old 11-13-2017, 02:04 PM   #2731
jim lee
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Thanks! I'd be worried selling the speedos 'cause I don't think they will last very long. Couple years, maybe? Cheap RC servos & 3D printed parts. Neither are long lived items. But as a temp replacement while mine gets rebuilt? No problem.

Interesting thing; My goto processor that I'm planning on using, has built in CANBUS. I've never used the feature but I've been keeping my eye out for reasons to learn it.

I love your anvil mounting, looks elvish.

How do you get the hot rivet in the material then strike the other side? How do you back the rivet? Or does the wife buck the rivet while you bash it with the sledge?

Looking at your setup, I wonder if a dual circuit gas line would be the hot setup? One line, always open and set to give a small pilot flame. The other circuit, flipped open or closed with a ball valve, for full-blast.

-jim lee
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:49 PM   #2732
Alxj64
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Originally Posted by jim lee View Post
Thanks! I'd be worried selling the speedos 'cause I don't think they will last very long. Couple years, maybe? Cheap RC servos & 3D printed parts. Neither are long lived items. But as a temp replacement while mine gets rebuilt? No problem.

Interesting thing; My goto processor that I'm planning on using, has built in CANBUS. I've never used the feature but I've been keeping my eye out for reasons to learn it.

I love your anvil mounting, looks elvish.

How do you get the hot rivet in the material then strike the other side? How do you back the rivet? Or does the wife buck the rivet while you bash it with the sledge?

Looking at your setup, I wonder if a dual circuit gas line would be the hot setup? One line, always open and set to give a small pilot flame. The other circuit, flipped open or closed with a ball valve, for full-blast.

-jim lee
Thats cool on the CANBUS stuff. So far I like my system in the Carryall. It wasn't hard to wire honestly. Getting the engine wired up was way more difficult and still really wasn't that bad.. knock on wood.

Elvish as in like Middle Earth? Hrmm, I guess I can see that; I never really was into that genre of things but some friends and my youngest brother were / are. It was actually pretty easy stand to throw together. Cutting the 6x6s sqaurely was my biggest challenge working on my lonesome.

As for the rivets, I am working on getting a second die but honestly I just used the anvil as the buck and beat the head with the air hammer. My 4x hammer doesn't have enough woo-pow so I found a mislisted old school heavy CP hammer online and it is in the mail currently. I also ordered a carbide ball end mill to use to machine some more hammer dies on the lathe. I 'll chuck up the end mill in the lathe and bore out the end of some W1 or something and then heat the die in the forge and quench the whole thing to get it hard. I need to do a little metallurgy reading to make sure I pick the right material and quench it correctly for good hardness for tooling. I figure I'm further head making my own dies than buying a bunch of stuff. This way I can maybe make an offset die and such. I'm expecting the new hammer to have enough woo-pow to fully form the second head. Or atleast smash it to the correct shape. I need to make sure my backing die is machine well to prevent localized deformation of the fastened plates. This is certainly an art form, and a lost art form at that. Not many folks out there still doing this but luckily the rivets can still be found. I think the coolness factor is totally worth it though. My wife already has ideas for some industrial furniture too.

Ideally, if I keep gathering tools for the hot riveting game, I'll invest in whats called an "air holder-on" which is basically an air actuated short throw porta-power that will hold the back side of the rivet while you hammer away with the gun. There is a company on the west coast called Ballard Forge, in Seattle actually, that does amazing hot rivet work.
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Old 11-16-2017, 07:38 AM   #2733
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Getting it all framed up. Need to drill more holes and my BAMF rivet gun should be here on Friday. I'll revisit the process this weekend and see how it goes. I also have some tooling on the way to try and machine my own hammer die sets too. My wife joked me last night that even my projects have projects that have projects.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:39 AM   #2734
jim lee
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My projects have projects that have projects.
Boyo, you got that right. I know that feeling.

So Alex, I was wondering, did you read things like Marvel comics as a kid?

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Old 11-16-2017, 11:46 AM   #2735
Alxj64
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Boyo, you got that right. I know that feeling.

So Alex, I was wondering, did you read things like Marvel comics as a kid?

-jim lee
No, not really; however I do know most of the more notable characters. Why do you ask? I grew up partially on my grandparents Angus Cattle Farm, neighbors and family friend's farms, and also my parents and grandparents operated a very large John Deere / Agco / Massey F. dealership that also did heavy hauling, recovery, and diesel rebuilds. Thats where I think a lot of my "metal head" mentality comes from. I loved riding in my dad's cabover International with an 8V92T and watching the shift linkage move, driveshaft spin, airbags charge, etc etc. I was a gear-head before I could walk.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:28 PM   #2736
jim lee
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Well, I was looking at how you did the metal on your anvil. Then the rivets. You bought a milling machine and painted it before unloading it from the truck. Next I ran into hotmess photography.. This got me thinking "These two are VERY visually oriented people". With this thought, I went back over some of your build threads looking at the "style" you use when making stuff.

It reminds me of super hero comic book artwork. But brought to life and made real. You should be building stuff for Hollywood with an eye like that.

So, I just wondered where you were picking it up.

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Old 11-17-2017, 09:00 AM   #2737
Alxj64
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Well, I was looking at how you did the metal on your anvil. Then the rivets. You bought a milling machine and painted it before unloading it from the truck. Next I ran into hotmess photography.. This got me thinking "These two are VERY visually oriented people". With this thought, I went back over some of your build threads looking at the "style" you use when making stuff.

It reminds me of super hero comic book artwork. But brought to life and made real. You should be building stuff for Hollywood with an eye like that.

So, I just wondered where you were picking it up.

-jim lee
Jim, this is great to hear! Honestly, when people ask me how I intend the truck to look, my most understood response is "have you seen the first Captain America movie?" as I am actually trying to build towards that retro-modern, kind of Sci-fi WWII genre that they did a very good job with in that movie. The architecture of the giant aircraft that they crash at the end of the movie has a lot of influence, but the influence of that is based on production machinery of WWII. One of the reasons I flew in that B17 was so that I could fill my mind with how things were actually built and then I can spin them in my post-modern manner. I am glad to hear that this actually being conveyed as my visual aesthetic! It is a very difficult task to balance the amount of new with old to try and pull off that effect. I feel like creating clean riveted and bead rolled bracketry to attach modern components helps fuel the look... it smears the line between "was that supposed to be there, or is that something new?" Obviously, purists and other WC owners know what is supposed to be there, however the general population is clueless.

So...in regards to rivets...These old *******s should do the trick! Turn of the century Hot rivet hammers. One was converted over to a chipping hammer as the previous owner installed a chipping head retainer but from what I've been seeing, as long as it has the variable valve in it, you can use it for setting rivets also. Some guys say that its either a rivet gun or a chipping hammer, not both; but from digging around in some old locomotive restoration forums (yes, that is a thing), lots of guys are just using retro-fitted chipping hammers with the simplate type valve. I'll need to make or source some "clips" to hold my setter dies or come up with my own system. According to the old timer that previously owned the one on the right, it didn't have die retainers and the operators would use leather boot strings hooked to wire leaders wrapped around the shank of the die and then wrap the leather around their lead hand fist holding the gun and that would pull the dies into the hammer. They used this method so that they could run a few sets of dies with different depth heads depending on the exact thickness of the plates as the volume of the protruding rivet is what determined the shape of the head. If they had a slightly thicker plate section due to shims or overlaps but only a few lengths of rivets, they'd work out the best dome shape to create the most effective rivet tail.Also, with smaller rivets that they could heat the end of the dies some too so that they wouldn't sap too much heat out of the rivet when driving; this is something the old timer suggested I do as well. He "ended up" with this hammer eons ago after repairing some bridge sections on an old truss bridges somewhere in Ohio. He used it some as a chipping hammer but mostly it has set of the shelf, I'm referring to the one on the right.

My 4x aircraft gun shown for size comparison that will cold set 3/16" aluminum with no problem but wouldn't barely put a dent in these 3/8" steel ones, even when white hot. That being the case, these bigger hammers should do just fine. I have to get the head shapes right for my dies now. I have an 11/16" carbide ball end mill that I am going to try and make a few dies with.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:55 AM   #2738
Bruce in BC
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Dies

made a few, forget what steel I used, each had a specific temp to heat to and then quench at a given temp or cool in a specific manner.
But some of the trash dies worked just as well. A piece of spring steel welded to the end of some steel bar made a great form for doing just what you are up to. I managed to grind the head shape into the spring, we had the rest of the set in the shop but the head piece was long gone. Might still be there in the shop but that was 30 years ago and 4 or 5 instructors have been working there since.

Any one know if the PWA magazine is back on track. I seem to be in the thick of things mechanical wise, might be worth the effort to do an article.

take care
Bruce

running for the ferry
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:16 AM   #2739
Bruce in BC
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a whee bit ah progress

Got the new head on, not bolted down but the studs are in place. Sure enough the new head needed a little bit of machining to true it up. I had it shipped to a machine shop in Vancouver, they then checked it out and I drove over and picked it up. If the shop was local and no ferry was in the way I would have deberred the whole head, cleaned up any flash in the intake and exhaust ports and hit as many oil galleries as I could reach. But to do so would have added an extra two trips and a few ferry fees.

I am machining the rocker towers. I put a milling machine bit in the lathe and clamp the tower down on the tool rest. Got two done so far. Seems to work fine, the lathe does not know that it is not a milling machine. once this is done I will torque down the bolts using ARP's new lube. Apparently you only need to torque the bolts once. I suspect I will go back and do them a second time , after a few heat cycles.

Once the head is torqued down I will need to deal with the injectors. I hope I can machine my old ones to fit.

take care
Bruce

Love those old tools that Alex has managed to dig up.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:41 AM   #2740
Alxj64
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Sounds like you are getting it knocked out Bruce! Fingers crossed that you can get it back up and running soon.

Its funny that you mentioned running a milling bit in the lathe; I did the same thing but I used mine like a drill bit. I found one that matched the head radius of the rivets I am using so I decided to turn out a test bit.

After I machined it, I heated it and quenched it. Its not tool steel hard but its harder than the original 8620 was when I started.
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:46 PM   #2741
jim lee
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Alex, watch out for that pirate 4x4 forum. I know you post there, as does about a zillion others.

I just signed up on that forum. Twice now, while reading stuff on there, I suddenly get a "This site has wrong credentials" kind of popup. Suspicious.. The first time I ignored it, but last night it got persistent to the point I shut off my browser.

This AM I get a call from my ISP, "Your account has been hacked." I told them what I'd seen and they think it was pirate4x4 from my description.

P.S. Round end mill bit as a drill for drilling round bottom holes. Clever!

-jim lee
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:11 PM   #2742
Alxj64
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Alex, watch out for that pirate 4x4 forum. I know you post there, as does about a zillion others.

I just signed up on that forum. Twice now, while reading stuff on there, I suddenly get a "This site has wrong credentials" kind of popup. Suspicious.. The first time I ignored it, but last night it got persistent to the point I shut off my browser.

This AM I get a call from my ISP, "Your account has been hacked." I told them what I'd seen and they think it was pirate4x4 from my description.

P.S. Round end mill bit as a drill for drilling round bottom holes. Clever!

-jim lee
Yea, that forum has been having a lot of technical problems ever since it was sold to the Canadians (no offense Bruce). Lance and Camo used to do a good job with it but now its turned way too commercial. The downside is that it really is a very deep reservoir of technical and vehicle-centric minds. They are also very good a self-policing out the people who are non-contributors or just plain trolls, unlike FB groups where its more of a social whining fest.

But many thanks for the heads up. I always make sure I log out when I leave the page just in case. I'll certainly keep my eye on things too.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:20 PM   #2743
Matthew Welcher PWA
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Alex have you been riveting lately, I cannot wait to see how your tooling works out.
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Old Yesterday, 12:25 AM   #2744
Greg Coffin
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Hey Alex, those old riveting hammers look like they're going to do the job for you. One suggestion for the long hammer - remove the quick-connect air fitting and install a short section of hose on the end of the hammer, then terminate the hose with a quick-connect. When I was using my hammer for just a few minutes I found that there was enough play in the quick-connect that the latching balls destroyed the lip on the male fitting. The short section of hose absorbs most of the shock to protect the fittings.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the riveting goes. I've always wanted to rivet something. Born in the wrong century.....
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