Power Wagon yes, but which one?

[S.Swanson]

Hi guys - New member and first post here.

I've been trying to find a site where I can learn about the older Dodges and I think I've found it. There seems to be a wealth of information and experience here. I'm pretty ignorant about the older trucks, and I hope you'll overlook it if I tend to ask questions about things most of you have probably long since passed over. It's 'new' to me.

I'm a truck fanatic who's without a truck at the moment, and I'm looking. I've been stuck in the rut of always having newer trucks and frankly I'm sick of them. It seems like the newer a truck is the more of a piece of crap is it - pardon the expression. Looking back on it, I was the most happy with my trucks when I was younger and didn't have the money to waste on a new truck. I bought used and made do. Good, simple, reliable trucks.

So, I want to go back to my roots. I definitely want a Dodge (best trucks I've ever owned), but at this point I'm honestly not sure which type - WM300, Power Giant, W200/W300 - to buy. It seems like they each have their strengths.

What I'm looking for is a brute strong truck that is (i) simple in design, (ii) reliable by design, (iii) easy to work on and maintain, (iv) a truck with good parts availability, and, (v) practical as a daily driver - winter, spring, summer and fall.

I'm not looking for a hot rod or something to chop up to 'customize'. Of prime importance is simplicity and reliability.

I know that this is the WM300 forum, but I didn't want to have to post in every forum. I figure this is the largest forum and should provide the widest spectrum of opinions so please guys, give me your thoughts.

Strengths, weaknesses, druthers, I'll take it all and be thankful for it.

Steve

[MoparNorm]

Hi Steve,
First of all there is no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers.
The type of truck to get all depends upon what you want to do with it and how hard you want to look for parts and how much you want to spend on the parts, once you find them.
The (DTA) Dodge Truck Association has an ImageEvent site that has photos of every type, just to give you an idea of the different types of Dodges. DTA ImageEvent website (http://imageevent.com/moparnorm)

There is this site and Joe C's Powerwagon site with photo classifieds.
Dodge Power Wagons (http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/)

As for truck types, the WDX-WM300 styles of POWER WAGONS have the most appeal. They lack the comforts and highway manners of the Sweptlines (61-71). The Power Giants fill the gap between the two styles, but are a little harder to find parts for than the Sweptlines.
They are all brute strong and extremely capable off-road, easy to work on, but a challenge to find parts for. (But there are many, many sources with more vendors added every day!)
The practical daily driver would, depending upon the length of that daily trip, and also whether freeways are involved would put the WDX POWER WAGONS at a disadvantage, but not a serious one unless you plan on driving 30 miles each way, every day. The Sweptlines are the easiest to find at the lowest prices, but they are becoming more popular every day. Power Giants and Sweptlines have more highway friendly gearing, more sound proofing and padding and a more pleasant ride.
I would buy one of each if I had the room and the money!
Look around, maybe visit some of the folks on the three forums that happen to be close to you. Most of all good luck and have fun while you are discovering your new hobby!
MN
Dodge Truck Association (http://www.dodgesweptline.org)

[Gordon Maney]

Another source of information is covered here: http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/subscribe.html

You wrote: What I'm looking for is a brute strong truck that is (i) simple in design, (ii) reliable by design, (iii) easy to work on and maintain, (iv) a truck with good parts availability, and, (v) practical as a daily driver - winter, spring, summer and fall.

If I listen to that closely, I would say you want a W300 made from 1961 to 1971. That covers the brute strong part and the daily driver part, even at acceptable highway speeds.

If there is a single disadvantage to the W-series trucks, in my opinion, it is the sheetmetal. I live in Iowa, we have snow, ice, and salt. I think the W-series trucks are the most rust prone things that Chrysler ever built, save the Power Giant's headlilghts. They all fell out here.

I have a W300 with a 440 and an overdrive 5-speed. It is a truck, for sure. I also have a B1PW and an M37, they are wonderful, but listening to what you wrote, I offered my opinion.

Welcome to the site, and the hobby. Have fun in the chase....

[MoparNorm]

Just a side note to Gordons post, if you look at W300 or W200's, pay close attention to the "A" Pillar door posts, the rockers, the floor pans and the front cowl below the hood at the firewall. These are the areas where rust will first develop.
There is however a fair supply of rust free sheet metal in CA and AZ. With a few folks on the three forums keeping supplys for sale or trade.
MN
Dodge Sweptline .org (http://www.dodgesweptline.org)

[Gordon Maney]

I have long wished for a trailer and the time to drive to one of those rust free fantasy lands.

It snowed some today.... and I am sure the folks in the big orange trucks have salted already.....

[S.Swanson]

Thanks for the replies. I know I could certainly live with a Sweptline and they're pretty bare-bones, but that's exactly what I'm looking for - simplicity. I guess I'm wondering, if the WDX-WM300's and Power Giants are even more bare-bones, what must they be like? :)

Back when I was in high school, my best friend had a '63 W100 (? - could have been a W200) and while he hated it (wasn't cool) I loved it. That old truck took the sort of pounding that only a pair of teenage country boys could dish out and just kept going. It wasn't quiet, it wasn't pretty, but it was tough, it was simple and it never stranded us.

Anyway, back on track.

Yes Gordon, you're right - a W300 Sweptline would do very nicely. Heck, a W200 would do very nicely but I would rather have the extra heavy-duty drivetrain. Problem is finding a nice one. One of the sites I visited (vintagepowerwagons, I think) had a really nice '69 W300, painted off white and it appeared to be pretty much restored, but it's been sold. ($11,000 some odd - is that an average price?) Another site (dodgepowerwagons) has a pretty nice '68 WDX-WM300 in Texas but it's $16,500. I guess a reasonable question would be, what should I be looking to spend for a nice, well cared for truck of either sort? I don't want a beater, I want a well cared for truck.

Oh, and when I say a daily driver, I don't mean a freeway commuter. It will inevitably spend some time on the freeway, but not much.

Thanks again;

Steve

[Fred Coldwell]

Steve:

Also look at the Dodge 4X4 Trucks For Sale section of this Forum. As one example, I have a stout 1970 W200 for sale in Colorado that would make a good daily driver, is comfortable on the interstates, wonderful on older roads, and has a covered utility bed to keep out the Oregon rain. Here is a short cut:

http://www.vintimage.com/W200page.htm

Other trucks are listed too. Good luck in your search.

Fred in Denver

[S.Swanson]

Hey Fellas;

Just beginning - 'The Quest' - and I found a '68 W300 that is a former Air Force munitions hauler. It appears to be in pretty good shape, but it has a flatbed on it and I need a regular pickup bed.

How difficult and/or expensive would it be to find a pickup bed for a '68 W300?

Steve

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by S.Swanson
Hey Fellas;

Just beginning - 'The Quest' - and I found a '68 W300 that is a former Air Force munitions hauler. It appears to be in pretty good shape, but it has a flatbed on it and I need a regular pickup bed.

How difficult and/or expensive would it be to find a pickup bed for a '68 W300?

Steve

Look at what the W300 is like, ignoring the bed issue. If you think it is an excellent truck, an excellent value, don't let it go because it does not have a correct bed. You can find one, it may take a while to find a good one, but.... so? As a practical matter, you can drive it with the flatbed, and you will actually discover some virtues of the flatbed that are plainly absent in a pickup bed.

Recently I drove my Cummins Ram [with pickup bed] to pick up a piece of steel plate that turned out to be bigger than I had first thought. It was a piece of plate 60 inches square. It just barely fit inside the bed, and had to be lowered from above. Getting it out was a real problem given what I had to work with, and yes, I did end up putting several scratches in the inside of the bed. That day I certainly longed for my W300 with its durable flatbed.

Look at the truck, its condition, and the value it presents. Look at the cab sheetmetal, the possible rust points. It is much easier to find a good box than it is to find a good cab, unless of course you live in California or Arizona....

[MoparNorm]

There are several trucks at BrittNCool's moparts farm, one a nice W400 Crew Cab.
If you go to 61-71 Dodge Sweptline Org (http://www.dodgesweptline.org) and post at the web forum, you'll find several folks with good trucks for sale.

Gordon, I've always wondered why, in this age of political correctness, why the enviro's still allow the rust belt states to use salt on the roads????
Colorado gets up to 450" per year, no salt, Utah ditto, California has that little mt. range called the Sierra's (remember the Donner party?), no salt, most of the states west of the Mississippi do not use salt, can someone enlighten me as to why the eastern US still uses salt on the roads and not cinders like we do out here? All that salt cannot be good for the fishys and other aquatic creatures, in areas of run-off, not to mention the plants.
MN

[S.Swanson]

Well Norm - Don't jump too deep into that barrel. Oregon uses some sort of liquid - calcium something-or-other - that's corrosive. More corrosive than salt some say. They're supposed to add an agent that will cause it to not be corrosive (or not so corrosive), but with our budget crunch, most here doubt that they actually do now or have in the past half-dozen years or so.

The way it's supposed to work is they spray it on the roads before the freeze and it helps prohibit ice buildup. Personally, I don't think it works as advertised and I certainly don't think it helps with snow. When the Lord wants to give us Oregonians a new coat of white it's going to happen regardless what secret elixir the state applies.

If you ever drive through Oregon in the late fall (usually when they start applying the stuff) when it's raining and you notice milky-white trails left by the rig in front of you, that's the stuff.

Fortunately, they still use red rock up in the passes. I spent 15 years trucking the 48 states and Canada and I will be the first in line to say that there's nothing that works as well in the snow and ice as good old fashioned red rock. Well, that and keeping her at the governor going up the hill and low revs going down...

Steve

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by MoparNorm
There are several trucks at BrittNCool's moparts farm, one a nice W400 Crew Cab.

Gordon, I've always wondered why, in this age of political correctness, why the enviro's still allow the rust belt states to use salt on the roads????


I am with you on the salt issue. I think somehow they believe it is cheaper, or better, I don't really know. I just wish they did not use anything like that.

Also, I think a W400 crewcab would be a pretty neat truck....

[MoparNorm]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by S.Swanson
[B]Well Norm - Don't jump too deep into that barrel. Oregon uses some sort of liquid - calcium something-or-other - that's corrosive.

Hi Steve,
I wasn't aware that enviro concerned Oregon used that. (Is it calcium cloride?) Sort of ironic when you think about how much trouble they go to on water quality issues!
Cinders do work better!

Gordon, that crew cab is a beauty,...sort of,... he took it apart to re-build it and it is all there...in large pieces, ..that should help keep the cost down..ha!ha!

MNhttp://photos.imageevent.com/moparnorm/sweptlinesonly/Britts%20Crew.jpg

[Gordon Maney]

I like it....

[S.Swanson]

Originally posted by MoparNorm

Hi Steve,
I wasn't aware that enviro concerned Oregon used that. (Is it calcium cloride?) Sort of ironic when you think about how much trouble they go to on water quality issues!
Cinders do work better!



Actually, I took at look at some of our information and it's one of three; (i) Calcium Chloride, (ii) Magnesium Chloride, or, (iii) Calcium Magnesium Acetate. I see more information about Magnesium Chloride so I'd guess that's what they're using currently.

Yeah, one can only imagine how much of that stuff washes down into the streams and rivers. It seems to me to be a reasonable and realistic assumption that ALL of it eventually ends up in our water. I guess when you catch a fish that you're actually allowed to keep, and you clean it up, take it home, stick it in the freezer and it won't freeze, well, then you'll know...

At least we're not California (yet) with their Methel Tertiary Butyl Ether (I think that's what MTBE stands for).

Steve

P.S. - Oh man, THAT'S a truck... :D

[MoparNorm]

California banned the MTBE's they discovered! that it pollutes water! ha!ha!

The Crew Cab has been down graded to a "D". I just talked to Britt and he sold the W500 running gear that was going to be installed into it. He lives in a "master planned" CA community with a convenant against storing or parking disabled vehicles. He is in a hurry to sell his collection before the Sheriff comes and hauls them all away.
MN

[Jonas Smith]

Hey Steve,

The truth is, It's difficult for me to say that there's one Power Wagon that will fit the bill for everything. I like them all. The best looking to me are the WDX-WM300 styles, but they are the least comfortable to ride in and have abysimall power. So all the power is generated in the form of low gearing, hence top speed in a WDX is about 42 MPH, or a bit more if you have the 4.89 gear sets. They are also constant maintanance. Not major things mind you, but you will forever be chasing down rattles, squeaks, leaks, etc... But for me that's the charm of the WDX Power Wagon. No two trucks are exactly the same. Each one has a character all it's own.

The sweptline trucks are great, but as said before, you can watch the sheetmetal flake away. You have a availability of 4.10 gears and can find one with a 318, or 383 engine that will do all the work you want of it. The only weak point in the drive train is small knuckle Dana 44 front axle. Big knuckle 44's are out there, as are Dana 60's (w disc brakes?).

Power Giants are very cool looking and good mix between old and older. V-8 and 4.10 gears in the W100's make it a excellent choice for a road runner. The W100 drivetrain reminds me of a passenger car though. W200's and W300 are built more stout, but the 4.88 gearing limits your top end speed a bit.

There all kinds of holes that can be shot in my short diatribe. It's a ongoing debate. Personally, I am of the opinion that they are all great trucks, but out west here, anything less than a 1 ton is for the women to take pies to the church social in.

Another answer is to build two WDX power wagons. one original (show) and one modified with upgrades (go).

[S.Swanson]

Originally posted by Jonas Smith Personally, I am of the opinion that they are all great trucks, but out west here, anything less than a 1 ton is for the women to take pies to the church social in.

Oh man, that's a great line !!

Okay, let me ask you this: Are there some trucks that are more desireable as far as having more heavy-duty parts than others? For instance, which trucks have the Dana 60 front? I've seen a few older trucks that are advertised as having 60's front and rear. I think I recall a few claiming to have 70's front and rear. Dana 70's front and rear with an NP205 transfer case and a nice strong 4 speed would be a combination I'd love to have.

As far as absolute brute drivetrain strength, which are the ones to look for?

And yes, I'm with you on the WDX-WM300's. I love the looks and the character. The cabs do look a little short though, that's a bit of a concern. I'm 6'4" and 230 lbs. Years ago I had a string of Chevys and one of the reasons I traded my '87 Scotsdale for my first brand new Dodge, a '92 3/4 ton Cummins, was that I was tired of the short cab of the Chevys. Well, that and the Chevy's kept breaking things...

I do miss that '92.

Steve

[S.Swanson]

Just found an answer to one of my questions - W300's came with super duty Dana 70's front and rear.

Excellent...

Steve

[Gordon Maney]

The W300's have Dana 70's front and rear.

I love my 1948 Power Wagons, but from a chassis point of view, they can't equal the W300 for heavy duty.

[Jonas Smith]

Honestly, drive a W200, and drive a W300 yourself and make a choice. the w300 is the embodyment of "Heavy Duty" to be sure. If I were to buy one, see if Fred Coldwell still has his W300 for sale. In my opinion, that is a great truck with the utility bed, and the alaskan camper, and I'm sure the rare factory power steering is nice. It's rust free also which is the rarest of options in the sweptline trucks. He also has a original 9' bed for it and lots of other goodies!!!

I think Dodge and International were the only ones to offer the 70's front and rear. Ford had a 60 up front. GM did'nt even offer a 4x4. I think Dodge went to a 60 later on in the 1970's but I'm not sure.
You will find the Dana 70 in the Power Giant, and Sweptline W300's for sure. I have heard that later model Dana 70's could be had with a bit taller than 4.88 gears but not as tall as 4.10's

I have a '63 W300 rolling chassis. everything but the sheetmetal if that's any indication of the disposion of the sweptline trucks. It just sit's there in my yard (Industrial lawn art!), and everyone who comes over and has a look gets really big eyes over it. No one can believe it's a 1 ton as it looks like a 2 ton. If you stand on the frame over the rear axle and jump up and down on it, the only suspension flex is in the tires.
So the thing is, the flatbed is going to add a lot of weight and that's a good thing, as without the weight when you hit a good bump at speed, the truck has a tendency to try and throw you out the door. Another thing about all these rigs is the manual steering. It works as advertised, but it is akin to herding cattle down the trail. Not a issue per se..., but something to be aware of.

As Gordon said, the flatbed is quite handy. Especially when loading stuff from the side which you will do more than you think. Another neat thing about the flatbed is there are all sorts of custom things you can do with it... Tool boxes underneath for storage of equipment are a must as is a headache rack to protect the cab. There are quite a few D500's in junkyards with the NP540 5 speed. and a lot of those will have a single direction PTO to drive a stand-alone hydraulic pump. Think BIG winches and dump hoists here. You can pile a lot of usefull big truck equipment in a fairly small but stout package.

I've seen the pictures of the "weapons carrier" W300 you are talking about for sale. It looks like a heck of a solid truck in the pictures.

As I said, I like e'm all!!!!

[S.Swanson]

So Jonas -

What do you think of the 225 slant six, the Ford tranny, the 205 transfer case and the Dana 80's?? Do you think the truck's been modified, or do you think the fellow is confused as to exactly what he has?

I could believe the slant six, but the Ford tranny? And I thought the W300's had NP201's? (what the heck is a 201 anyway - or, should I ask, as compared to a 205 since I know what a 205 is) And Dana 80's??

The picture sure does look nice...

Steve

[Gordon Maney]

I have a 1967 W300 with a 201, and a 1971 W300 with a 205. I am not sure which year the change occurred. The two transfer cases are almost identical, sharing a lot of internal parts. The most notable difference is that the 201 has two levers and the 205 has one lever controlling the two shift rails.

[Jonas Smith]

I'm sure it has 70's and the NP 435 4 speed. I'm not sure about the transfer case. The 225 is a great little motor. I had a '65 plymouth station wagon with the 225 and it got 30 MPG and had a no spin rear end so it went great in the snow. It was'nt a power house, but it got me where I needed to go untill the fenders rotted off.

As long as the sheetmetal is good, the 225 would'nt scare me away. Look at it this way, you can find a rebuildable 318 (or bigger) and rebuild it in your garage while driving the truck with the 225 in it around.

Find out if the truck has 4.88 gears of 5.83 gears. It may have the lower gears because of the smaller engine. That would be a big concern if you wanted a turn key truck for a driver.

[Pete]

Hello everyone - another new user here.

Unlike at the start of this thread, I know my first truck will be a Power Wagon. I would like a good solid truck that does not need an immediate restoration but I can work on as I have time. I have learned a lot by reading this and other forums, however, being a newbie, I am not quite sure where to start. Is there a good book or article about what to look for when buying a Power Wagon or what's involved in restoring/fixing them? Is there a must have "bible?" Also, are there particular model years that have more parts available or make better/easier projects?

Thanks for your input.

Pete

[HWooldridge]

Steve,

So far as Dodges go, I drive M37's exclusively and put up with the inconvenience of not being able to go 70. They are relatively easy to work on and have that unmatched "look". From a cost standpoint, I really think you can find a solid original truck in any of the common models a long way south of $10,000. The ones you saw in the mid-teen-thousand$ may be completely restored but there are still good solid trucks like the W series that can be found for a lot less. You may have to get below salt and snow country but they can be found with some prospecting. I have three M37's right now with two in restoration and one already finished. I am real picky and these three came out of looking at many trucks over about 20 years. Look for solid bodies since most of the mechanical stuff is fairly simple. Good luck - Hollis

[S.Swanson]

Jonas - Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I'd bet a nice shiny nickel that it has Dana 70's and the NP435. With Gordon's explanation about the difference between the 201 and the 205, I wouldn't really care either way.

And about the slant six, I think they're neat little engines. I must admit that my all-time favorite inline 6 (for a gasoline engine anyway...;) is the 300 Ford, but those little 225's seem to run forever. My favorite inline 6 of all time is the KTA Cummins, but I doubt I'd be able to shoehorn one of those into a W300. Then again, I wouldn't need a tranny... :D

I was going to call him today to talk with him about the truck, but I just got too sidetracked. I'm hoping it has the 4.88's. I've got a little time tomorrow afternoon, so I'll solve the mystery then...

Steve

[S.Swanson]

Originally posted by Pete
I have learned a lot by reading this and other forums, however, being a newbie, I am not quite sure where to start.

Oh, I thought I felt someone get into the same boat that I'm in...

Howdy!

Steve

[S.Swanson]

Thanks Hollis - I'm already finding that out. I've decided that I'm going to take my time (don't want to wait 20 years though) and find a nice truck because I'm like you - I'd rather find a truck with a solid body because that's the part that I'd have to farm out. Well, that and electrical, but there's not much to the early Dodges as far as electrical goes.

Besides - at least half of the fun is the hunt.

Steve

[Jonas Smith]

The M-37's are just as tough, as the WDX style Power wagons, and they ride 10 times better. You cant go wrong with a M-37. They just arent as collectable (yet) as the WDX type trucks. That's a good thing as a buyer!!!! If you can find a Canadian M-37, it comes standard with the bigger 251 ci motor.

[S.Swanson]

Time for an update just in case anyone's following this. I called the owner (JB) and he says that it's pretty much stock, so at this point I've virtually certain that it has super duty Dana 70's front and rear, and an NP435 tranny. JB also says that it has two transfer case levers so it looks like we're looking at a NP201 (thanks Gordon).

He has no idea what the gear ratio is, but says that the truck is just about topped out at 65mph and feels a whole lot more comfortable at around 50.

I'm going to go see it on Saturday... :D

Steve

[Jonas Smith]

And that's a really good thing! Some bigger tires will get your road speed up a bit.

[S.Swanson]

Update on the update -

I saw the truck today. No rust except that the cab floor is rusted through in a couple of places, and the cab mount areas in the floor are getting pretty bad. Really strange - usually when there's that much rust in one area there's pretty bad rust elsewhere, but not in this case. It all seems to be confined to the cab floor.

There is no pickup box, so I'd need to find one ($ ?).

It is an original slant six, the tranny feels like a fairly close ratio 4 speed, the transfer case is a two-lever (NP201 evidently) that's divorced, and differentials are Spicer 70's and the ratio is 4.88. Power brakes, manual steering. Interior is, other than the holes in the floor, in really good shape, except there's a rip in the seat on the driver's end and the door panels don't match - one is blue and the other is black. Weird. The rubber on the pedals isn't worn very much, suggesting that the truck is relatively close to the 28,000 miles showing on the odometer which, by the way, no longer works. The owner says that he figures there's probably 5,000 additional miles. I'd guess 10 to 12. The speedometer also doesn't work, obviously. Neither does the gas guage or the temp guage. Which, as you probably guessed, are pretty much all the guages! :) (we don't need no stinking guages...)

There is no weatherstripping left in the doors, and the rubber windshield gasket is missing a small piece, about and inch long. I'm guessing that kits are available??

The steering gearbox seems a bit loose (are they rebuildable?) and it appears that we have a steering gearbox leak. And a right front axle seal that's bad, or weeping. The Warn hubs are very balky (neither wants to rotate completely into lock or free)

Does anybody know if there are any standard (non split rim) rims available for these trucks? Any interchange experts out there?

Steve

[Kurt Hirte]

Not to start a new search but w/in the past week I read that Chris in Michigan is selling his red W500 again. I think I must have seen it over on the PW forum. Man that is a beauty of a truck. It is the shorter w/b model and I would drive it as a daily driver. Does any body remember that post ? There were pictures too so someone has to remember. Take a look and keep me from dreaming of a road trip to Michigan :-) Kurt