M37 4bt Swap details

[Altered_Auto]

I have a 53 M37 that I am looking forward to putting a diesel in and I want to know some of the finer details. All of the bread trucks I can find in my area have the turbo 400. I want to keep a manual tranny. I was thinking of using the SM465 because It seems as if would be the best all around in terms of cost and reliability. Is it possible to convert a auto truck to a manual? If so what parts do I need to get my hands on? Also what is the best way to connect the new tranny to my existing NP200? Is there anything I need to look out for in doing the swap other than the oil pan issue? There are so many great sites out there but either nobody got very technical or I just missed it. Any help will be greatly apppreciated.

[morthead]

I am doing the same swap on my 1963 M37 and I have done some research for the last several months and have talked to several knowledgable people with experience in this area. While I am by no means an authority on this swap, a few things that I have learned from others are:

1. Try to get a 4BTA engine if possible. These are aftercooled and produce more power than than non-aftercooled engines. Also, I have heard they are easier to increase the power and may be smoother in operation.

2. Due to the low RPM of these engines you may be better off with an overdrive transmission (5 speed) such as the NV4500 or ZF-s542. Depending what you intend to use the vehicle for, if you want highway speeds out of it you may even consider going to 4.89 gears.

3. I am planning on using the divorced NP200 with a 2WD NV4500 out of a dodge diesel. I'll let you know how it works out. One of the difficult items has been to find engine mount data or a source for prefab mounts.

4. Apparently the power steering pump on the 4BT has enough volume to run power steering and boosted brakes, which I am also trying to find more info on. By most accounts, both of those are worthwhile additions.

Hope this helps some, I'm sure you'll find plenty of good advice here, I look forward to seeing any other info in this area.

[Altered_Auto]

I thought breifly about putting an overdrive in it but it will be driven primarily in DE on roads where the speed limit is 55 and I am not sure I would want to go much faster than that with drum brakes and armstrong power steering. Are you planning to reuse the stock shaft to connect the NV4500 to your existing T case?

[CREEPING DEATH]

Use a Spicer 3053a transmission. They have OD and a Diesel gear split, and can be found for cheap.

CD

[Altered_Auto]

Use a Spicer 3053a transmission. They have OD and a Diesel gear split, and can be found for cheap.

CD
I have done some research and that definitely sounds like a good option. I know JP magazine put one in an M715 with an SBC so with the correct bellhousing and flywheel will it bolt to the Cummins adapter plate? Also how will i have to mate it to my NP200? Can I use the stock deuce shaft or will I have to have a custom unit?

Also, nobody has answered my question about converting a TH400 truck to a manual.

[Gordon Maney]

I have done some research and that definitely sounds like a good option. I know JP magazine put one in an M715 with an SBC so with the correct bellhousing and flywheel will it bolt to the Cummins adapter plate? Also how will i have to mate it to my NP200? Can I use the stock deuce shaft or will I have to have a custom unit?

Also, nobody has answered my question about converting a TH400 truck to a manual.

What does SBC mean?

[CREEPING DEATH]

The 3063a has an SAE #3 bellhousing on it, you'll need a #3 rear plate, flywheel, and starter for your 4BT, which are common and available used.

What does SBC mean?

Usually small-block Chevy.

CD

[Altered_Auto]

The rear plate you are refering to is the adapter plate to the cummins right? When I was researching this tranny everybody was using a divorced NP205 and a custon input yolk. Will I have to do this or is there annother way? Also the writeup in JP said that all the parts to swap to an SBC (Small block Chevy) are available on the C-60 and 70 so they should be relatively easy to track down. Based on the lack of comment I am assuming that converting from an automatic to a manual is no big deal. Is the adapter plate on the back of the Cummins the exact same as the back of a SBC?

[mcinfantry]

I am doing the same swap on my 1963 M37 and I have done some research for the last several months and have talked to several knowledgable people with experience in this area. While I am by no means an authority on this swap, a few things that I have learned from others are:

1. Try to get a 4BTA engine if possible. These are aftercooled and produce more power than than non-aftercooled engines. Also, I have heard they are easier to increase the power and may be smoother in operation.

its starts around 120hp. one person has posted on one forum they run smoother. that, as far as i am concerned is urban legend.


2. Due to the low RPM of these engines you may be better off with an overdrive transmission (5 speed) such as the NV4500 or ZF-s542. Depending what you intend to use the vehicle for, if you want highway speeds out of it you may even consider going to 4.89 gears.

fyi, i do not recommend a sm465 with the following gears. top speed with 5.89 will be 44mph, with 4.89 will be 54. i cannot imagine a diesel swap being cost effective to run the vehicle at that speed


3. I am planning on using the divorced NP200 with a 2WD NV4500 out of a dodge diesel. I'll let you know how it works out. One of the difficult items has been to find engine mount data or a source for prefab mounts.
its not going to work out, unless you move the transfer case back about a foot or so, then you will have some interesting other problems. a dodge 2wd diesel nv4500 is a slip yoke.


4. Apparently the power steering pump on the 4BT has enough volume to run power steering and boosted brakes, which I am also trying to find more info on. By most accounts, both of those are worthwhile additions.

Hope this helps some, I'm sure you'll find plenty of good advice here, I look forward to seeing any other info in this area.

that is correct.

[Altered_Auto]

I would like to gat at least 55 MPH out of it. What tranny is everybody else using? I would like something that will bolt in relatively painlessly and will not break the bank. The spicer sounds like a possibility but the bread truck I am looking at is a Chevy with TH400 so a Chevy tranny is probably in order.

[JimmieD]

All the parts to bolt in an NV4500 are readily available from wreckers out of stock Dodge Cummins trucks. That solves a lot of fabrication hassles. A 5 speed is going to give you a better selection of gears at any speed, and isn't just for ultimate top end. Using stock Dodge parts your 4BT install will be bulletproof and later replacements are a phone call away.

In order to install a manual trans in place of an auto you need the correct adapter plate, bell housing, pressureplate, clutch & flywheel and crossmember[s]. Many swappers run the GM, or preferably the Dodge NV4500 because installation parts are more widely available. For the Turbo 400 to manual trans, using a mishmash of assorted parts, you're asking for lots of custom work and fabrication to match engine, flywheel, clutch, input shaft, clutch hydraulics, t-case etc. Far easier and probably cheaper to go stock Dodge in my opinion, and of course that's just what I did.

McInfantry, Cabell Garbee and others on this site have done the 4BT/M37 swap and have posted a lot of info here. If you'll really give the search engine and archives a workout you get lots of valuable info. Use a variety of search terms, like 4B, 4BT, 4BTA, M37 diesel swap, M-37 diesel swap, diesel installation etc. and you'll find some helpful answers.

[Altered_Auto]

After spending too much time on the internet I have decided to go with the SM465 and Ranger overdrive that Mr. Garbee put in his power wagon. It is amazing how much information there is on this site and that so many people are willing to share their opinions.

[mcinfantry]

id would suggest a 5 speed tranny over the overdrive.

caball replaced his ranger with a 5 speed tranny, and iirc would highly recommend that route from jump.

[Altered_Auto]

I was looking at the NV 4500 for a while but i thought that the length was a bit too much especially considering they have a slip yolk on the back. But if this is easily overcome it would be a very viable option.

[mcinfantry]

how owuld you take up the 14" tail cone and a 8" or longer jackshaft? does an m37 have 22~24" to move the transfer case back??? my carryall does not.

[Altered_Auto]

I didn't realize it was that much larger. Is there any other overdrive % speed unit that will adapt pretty painlessly.

[Sickcall]

You could use a chevy nv4500 with the fixed yoke output and change to a dodge input shaft. You will not even have to dissasemble the tranny to make the change. If you already have the dodge nv4500 I have the parts to convert to a fixed yoke output. They will fit in/on any dadge nv4500 but you will have to tear it down to change the output shaft.

A better solution would be to use the 4X4 version of the nv4500 and mate it to a married np205. There is a 32 spline input adapter made for this. You could also mate it directly to the 32 spline input of the np203 and use a doubler kit with the np205 for a crawl box.

[CGarbee]

After spending too much time on the internet I have decided to go with the SM465 and Ranger overdrive that Mr. Garbee put in his power wagon. It is amazing how much information there is on this site and that so many people are willing to share their opinions.


If you purchase a 4BT or BTA out of a breadvan (or similar) that already has a SM465 on it, use of the RangerII OD can be a good option from a price/performance standpoint.

On the other hand, if you get an engine that doesn't have the SM465 already mounted, I think that your money would be better spent on a ZF S5-42 or S5-47 five speed... It's a much easier transmission to install then the NV4500 from a length standpoint, uses Mercon for lube, is less expensive, and has virtually the same gear ratios...

I've got my old RangerOD sitting in the garage with a S5-42 in the truck behind my 4BT right now...

Either way, the instalation is pretty easy and you get to use the stock t-case without relocating it (you do need to replace the seals with ones that will withstand higher operating temperatures though).

Good luck.

[Altered_Auto]

What models does the Zf S5-42 come in and what years was it in use?

How long is it, i.e. will I need a custom intermediate shaft?

Does it require the use of a hydraulic Throwout bearing?

Does the swap from Ford-Cummins use a Dodge flywheel and bellhousing?

I was reluctant to use this tranny because I could not find much info on the transmission and it seems like I will have replace a lot of parts that come on the engine in the Bread van with new ones like the adapter plate. and flywheel adapter.

[Gordon Maney]

This is an excellent thread.

[MoparNorm]

If you purchase a 4BT or BTA out of a breadvan (or similar) that already has a SM465 on it, use of the RangerII OD can be a good option from a price/performance standpoint.

On the other hand, if you get an engine that doesn't have the SM465 already mounted, I think that your money would be better spent on a ZF S5-42 or S5-47 five speed... It's a much easier transmission to install then the NV4500 from a length standpoint, uses Mercon for lube, is less expensive, and has virtually the same gear ratios...

I've got my old RangerOD sitting in the garage with a S5-42 in the truck behind my 4BT right now...

Either way, the instalation is pretty easy and you get to use the stock t-case without relocating it (you do need to replace the seals with ones that will withstand higher operating temperatures though).

Good luck.

Ditto, what is/are the ZF S5-42 or S5-47 five speed transmissions out of (application) and what are the weights and size?

[JimmieD]

Some info at link:

http://www.drivetrain.com/zfford.html

[Sickcall]

Rebuild kits a over twice the price of the NV4500. I had one of these trannies in an f250 that about ran out of oil. A common problem was a plastic cap on the top end that would age and fail. The tranny would then loose oil out the hole, not hard to fix, but if you didn't it would fail.

[CGarbee]

Drivetrain.com out in Vegas (the place with the link provided above) is one of the highest priced suppliers of parts for the ZF transmission that I have run accross...

ZF S5-42 were actually factory equipment in a number of Ford heavy-duty trucks for a few years - they were installed in 2wd and 4wd '87-'95 F250 HD’s, 350’s, and 450’s behind Windsor blocks, 460’s, and diesels. The S5-42 uses an external slave cylinder (same part number as the NV4500 interestingly for the early version, vastly different design (and better retention) on the third version of the MC that was supplied to Ford (get it for very little money at Advance Auto...). Max torque for the S5-42 is 420lb-ft.
The S5-47 was used in the same product range until the introduction of the six speed ZF 6-650. S5-47 uses an internal slave cylinder and has a torque rating of 470lb-ft.

The overall length of the ZF S5-42 in 2wd is 26" from the bellhousing face to the rear output and it is 14.5" tall. 2wd version has a 29-spline, 1.495" diameter output shaft, Spicer yoke on it is ZF part #1307304079 or Ford part #E7TZ089A (local dealer charges about $50.)

Last 2wd S5-42 that I purchased (rebuilt), ran $800.


The units have the same 1 1/16" 10-spline input shaft as the Getrag five speed that was installed in early Dodge Cummins applications, so you get to use a stock clutch from that application for a 4BT swap. You will have to run a custom short driveshaft between the transmission and transfer case (swap out the yoke on the transmission end), but you'd have to do that for most any transmission swap...

As far as use of the parts that you get with the breadtruck, you don't use many when you go with either the ZF or NV transmissions, but you can usually sell off what you have to somebody building a diesel Bronco or Toyota Landcruiser, etc...

Keep in mind aslo that the last time I priced RangerOD's they ran about $1500... (I do have one for sale, used, but it will require some reworking to mate up to a SM465 since I rigged it to work with a NP420).

[CGarbee]

Almost forgot... If you get a Ford chasis breadvan with a Cummins 4BT or 4BTA with the Ford flywheel adapter, you can bolt a ZF S5-42/47 right up as long as you get the smallblock version... :)

Only problem is that Ford chasis breadvans are hard to find in my area, hence, the use of Roger's adapters at FordCummins (and the fact that I can run a big block/diesel transmission that has a better-for me-gear set).

Diesel gear set is:
5.72 2.94 1.61 1.00 0.76

For comparison:
NV4500 (Dodge) 5.61 3.04 1.67 1.00 0.73


PTO port (SAE 6 bolt) on both driver and passenger sides.

S5-42 weight is approximately 175 lbs.

[MoparNorm]

Thanks for the info!
I had an 88 F250 with that transmission, good granny ratio but overall much less user friendly than the NV4500. It could have been my particular tranny but it was very stiff at the "gates", too much resistance going into each gear and never really improved with age. The NV4500 is initially hard shifting too, but after a few thousand miles it gets easier to shift as it breaks in.
I suppose that given the age of the Ford transmission, you'd be able to tell right off the bat if it's an easy shifting unit or not.

[Gordon Maney]

Thanks for the info!
I had an 88 F250 with that transmission, good granny ratio but overall much less user friendly than the NV4500. It could have been my particular tranny but it was very stiff at the "gates", too much resistance going into each gear and never really improved with age. The NV4500 is initially hard shifting too, but after a few thousand miles it gets easier to shift as it breaks in.
I suppose that given the age of the Ford transmission, you'd be able to tell right off the bat if it's an easy shifting unit or not.

I have been thinking about posting something about that. Back around 2001 I drove some new Ford, diesel powered trucks that had manual transmissions. I thought they shifted awfully hard.

[mcinfantry]

my aversion to the nv4500

limited production run. couple that with the 5th gear issue.... spares are rare

low aftermarket support. see first reason

special oil. sure amsoil MAY work. if it doesent? burn synchros burn!

[CGarbee]

I have been thinking about posting something about that. Back around 2001 I drove some new Ford, diesel powered trucks that had manual transmissions. I thought they shifted awfully hard.

I have driven both trucks with the ZF S5-42 (Fords at work and in my Cummins powered M37) as well as some with the NV4500 (Chevy's at work and one owned by a friend) and they all seemed about the same with the NV just a hair smoother, but not enough difference to sway my transmission choice...

Several folks I know who are active on the Ford forums say that the ZF can be made smoother with a change in gear lube, but I kinda like running the Mercon in it (spec fluid). :) Very innexpensive and available...

[MoparNorm]

my aversion to the nv4500

limited production run. couple that with the 5th gear issue.... spares are rare

low aftermarket support. see first reason

special oil. sure amsoil MAY work. if it doesent? burn synchros burn!

Limited production run?
It was built for over 10 years and was used in GM, Chevrolet and Dodge. Hundreds of thousands of units were built in addition to a small special run still going to Advanced Adapters.
Tremendous Aftermarket support (check out Jeep aftermarket suppliers) it is perhaps the most sought after transmission for retro-fits.
My only reason for not running it, is size and weight for my application.

[MoparNorm]

I have driven both trucks with the ZF S5-42 (Fords at work and in my Cummins powered M37) as well as some with the NV4500 (Chevy's at work and one owned by a friend) and they all seemed about the same with the NV just a hair smoother, but not enough difference to sway my transmission choice...

Several folks I know who are active on the Ford forums say that the ZF can be made smoother with a change in gear lube, but I kinda like running the Mercon in it (spec fluid). :) Very innexpensive and available...

That made me remember that the "throws" between gears is huge (maybe because of the length of the shifter?).
Is there any aftermarket support, such as Hurst, for improving that?

[mcinfantry]

Limited production run?
It was built for over 10 years and was used in GM, Chevrolet and Dodge. Hundreds of thousands of units were built in addition to a small special run still going to Advanced Adapters.
Tremendous Aftermarket support (check out Jeep aftermarket suppliers) it is perhaps the most sought after transmission for retro-fits.
My only reason for not running it, is size and weight for my application.

limited production run of FIXED 5th gear trannys.

im not saying they arent there, but look at what synchros cost. look at how much parts are, how much a new mainshaft is. so lets say they built 1,000,000 between 1992 and 2003 (iirc they were discontinued that year)

the fifth gear nut was "fixed" about 1/2 way through the production cycle. so in theory there would be about 500,000 useable PRODUCTION transmissions. out of those what % end up in junkyards/available for sale? .05?

anyway. if you add up how much the fiber synchros cost, and the mainshaft and a few other odds/ends there is no way, imo to but a rebuilt nv4500 for the bargain prices people advertise. labor is not free. not yours or mine.

i only posted MY opinion. not facts. those are still the reasons i dont like the NV. i ran one, and seriously considered it this time. im not saying i wouldnt run one again, i just cant stand a few of the issues.

add up synchros, output shaft (with 5th gear nut upgrade) and a seal kit. then tell me how you can buy a rebuilt one for <1000.

[MoparNorm]

Don't disagree that they are too expensive, mainly because of the demand from Jeepers. Jeeps were plagued with horrible transmissions and every NV4500 in any condition is being snapped up and rebuilt and resold at sky high prices. There are indeed a few companies pressure washing these units and doing nothing else, sell them as "rebuilt" and for cheap, but these are outlaws on ebay for the most part.
The 5th gear issue has been repaired on the units sold by reputable companies and I'd venture that there are nearly zip-zero-none languishing in salvage yards. These units get nabbed as soon as they come in and go straight to the 20 or so companies that are rebuilding them.
It's still not my choice, but it's the trans of choice for many, many folks.

[CGarbee]

That made me remember that the "throws" between gears is huge (maybe because of the length of the shifter?).
Is there any aftermarket support, such as Hurst, for improving that?


It is a fairly long toss, but not that bad. My gearshift sticks up above the bottom edge of the dash (M37) and the throw from 3-4 (for instance) puts the lever about an inch from the dash on one side and the passenger seat cushion on the other...

I'm used to the long throws in the older farm trucks (50's/70's GM for the most part) that we still run back home, in my collection of MV's (2.5 and 5 tons) and in the medium and heavy duty trucks at work (mainly Eaton Roadranger nine speeds...).

The shift lever that comes stock with the ZF S5-42 is about about the same length as the lever found on the NP420 mounted in the M37B1's (estimate, it's been a while since I had them side by side on the workbench).

I have not looked into reducing the throw with any aftermarket stuff since I like the setup just the way it is, but then, I think that a truck should be a truck (if I want a short shift, I get in my Jetta turbo...). :)

[MoparNorm]

It is a fairly long toss, but not that bad....... I have not looked into reducing the throw with any aftermarket stuff since I like the setup just the way it is, but then, I think that a truck should be a truck (if I want a short shift, I get in my Jetta turbo...). :)

Ha!Ha! Yeah, maybe I am getting soft, but combine the longer throws with harder shifting and a good 5 speed trans like the NV3550* spoil you for that Jetta feel, especially when you're on a 40 degree slope and trying to heel-toe and not go over the side.
This is probably why my truck has taken so long to finish, I hate settling for things that irritate me....= )

* mid duty, not rated for over 400 lbs of torque.

[Altered_Auto]

There are a slew of scrapyards in my neck of the woods so what is the likleihood of finding the ZF tranny in usable condition?

It seems like it would be fairly hard to find and costly due to the fact that it ran in a relatively limited number of trucks that will still be in usable condition. I was liking the SM465 because it ran from 68-91 and therefore finding one should be easier. Which do yall think will cost less, Sm465 w/bellhousing and ranger overdrive, or the ZF with all the adapters and stuff from Ford cummins?

I am just concerned about the major piece costs that differ from one to the other because I will have to buy a flywheel, clutch and rig up linkage either way. Price is an issue because I am 18 and going to technical school. I need to buy all the parts because the van i am watching on Dovebid is a Chevy with the TH400.

Does anybody know a company that remanufactures the ZF tranny?

[CGarbee]

There are a slew of scrapyards in my neck of the woods so what is the likleihood of finding the ZF tranny in usable condition?

Does anybody know a company that remanufactures the ZF tranny?


Depending on the yards in your area, it most likely will be easier to find the ZF transmission since Ford sold a lot of trucks in the time period that it was used, and they are newer and more likely to be in the yards (and not crushed to make space for incomming vehicles...).

Jasper (the big engine/transmission rebuild outfit, off the top of my head...). Not hard to do yourself with a kit.

ZF S5-42:
Transmission $700
Hydrualic clutch master (Tilton) $67
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1133,14_Universal-Master-Cylinders.html
Ford clutch slave and line $100
Clutch $300
Starter $150
Flywheel $75
Flywheel adapter $600
Intermediate drive shaft $200

RangerOD with SM465:
Bellhousing $30
RangerOD from Advance Adapters $1500
SM465 $200
Hydrualic clutch master (Tilton) $100
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1133,14_Universal-Master-Cylinders.html
Howe hydraulic through out bearing $150
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1945,41_Stock-Clutch-Hydraulic-Throwout-Bearing.html
Hydrualic clutch master (Tilton) $67
Clutch $300
Starter $150 (I’m not sure if the GM starter for the flexplate has the same Bendix gear as the one for the flywheel, may not need this…)
Flywheel $75
Intermediate drive shaft $200

Most of this is off the top of my head, but I’ve got a pretty good memory… Some of it I looked up, some I can verify tonight (I’ve got all the reciepts at the house). This all depends on your ability to scrounge as well…

FWIW: Rebuilding the Bosch VE rotary injector pump for a 4BT at my local shop (Chason Diesel) has a flat rate of $350… Look very carefully at the engine you are thinking of purchasing… They will last a lifetime, and aren’t that hard or expensive to put right if they have minor problems, but when they go south (from abuse), they can get very expensive…

[Altered_Auto]

It sounds like either option is going to run me about $2500 which is fine because my M37 was essentially free. With the ZF will I have any issues with engine placement or will it stay confined to the engine bay. I would once again like to thank everyone for their knowlodge and more importantly their willingness to share it. This forum is incredible!

[Sickcall]

and the fifth gear problem was limited to the dodge tranny used behind the diesel only. There are a couple of aftermarket fixes available for the nut problem but this would not be an issue behind a 4bt.

[CGarbee]

With the ZF will I have any issues with engine placement or will it stay confined to the engine bay.


With the ZF the engine sits very nicely in the engine bay, transmission shift tower lines right up the the hole in the floorboard (you will have to widen the floor pan about 1.5" thought, just slice it right up the center and add a strip...). Nice thing about the ZF is that the starter is on the passenger side, so the engine can be placed very close to the driver's side frame rail (as with the stock engine's offset placement) allowing for a straight driveline.

There are photos on my website showing the Cummins4BT/ZF S5-42 placement in my M37...

[JimmieD]

"Drivetrain.com out in Vegas (the place with the link provided above) is one of the highest priced suppliers of parts for the ZF transmission that I have run accross..."

I only posted that for reference info, but you're right about some very 'proud' pricing. I'd be interested in a link to a company with some more reasonable prices, do you, or does anybody, have any suggestions? I'm interested in NV4500 stuff myself.

[Altered_Auto]

On annother front what is the best way to gain the clearence necessary for the oil pan. I have seen blocks which I would like to shy away from and I have seen people customize the spring packs for clearence. What kind of Leaves are needed for this? I know I am going to have to notch the pan and that is fine. The trucks I am looking at go up for sale tomorrow and I am getting antsy to get started. Also on the tranny front. I sent out a message over the internet to scrap yards for the trannys. The best deal that came back was a rebuilt ZF S5-42 for $1300 plus core. Does that sound pricey?

[mcinfantry]

in my wc53 i didnt use blocks, or helper springs or a body lift. i mounted mine very far back and very low....

[Altered_Auto]

I bought the bread truck today. It is a '79 with the 4BT a TH400 and has 124,000 miles. I figure there is a pretty good chance it has been rebuilt. It runs and drives and is about 4 hours from my house. It looks like it is going to be a fun trip to go get it.

[Gordon Maney]

I bought the bread truck today. It is a '79 with the 4BT a TH400 and has 124,000 miles. I figure there is a pretty good chance it has been rebuilt. It runs and drives and is about 4 hours from my house. It looks like it is going to be a fun trip to go get it.

Congratulations. We envy you. It sounds like it will be a fun trip.

[MoparNorm]

I bought the bread truck today. It is a '79 with the 4BT a TH400 and has 124,000 miles. I figure there is a pretty good chance it has been rebuilt. It runs and drives and is about 4 hours from my house. It looks like it is going to be a fun trip to go get it.

Good luck with it!
There are a LOT of folks here that have a lot of experience with Cummins and can help you out when you have questions.

[JimmieD]

I bought the bread truck today. It is a '79 with the 4BT a TH400 and has 124,000 miles. I figure there is a pretty good chance it has been rebuilt. It runs and drives and is about 4 hours from my house. It looks like it is going to be a fun trip to go get it.

Rebuilt? No way! That engine is hardly broken in at 124,00 miles. This engine is from the family commonly referred to as "Million Mile Motors" and they're famous for logging really extreme miles before a rebuild, like 500,000+!

You're going to LOVE IT, I guarantee it ha haha, GREAT engine!! You just reminded me of the day I drove mine home, wow, what a fun time. Take notes and take LOTS of pics with a GOOD CAMERA, you'll be happy you did later. Enjoy yourself, work safe and post your progress.

[Doc Dave]

It sounds like either option is going to run me about $2500 which is fine because my M37 was essentially free. With the ZF will I have any issues with engine placement or will it stay confined to the engine bay. I would once again like to thank everyone for their knowlodge and more importantly their willingness to share it. This forum is incredible!

Hey Altered,
I live down in St. Mary's County, and I have a 4BT for my M37 project also. If you find a yard with the 5 speed ZF's (after you get yours of course), let me know as I am also looking. My Cummins came with the Ford Bellhousing adaptor set up.

[Altered_Auto]

I have a dew more quick questions before I embark on this adventure. I am going to add a few extra springs to the front end to clear the pan and I am wondering where I can buy longer U bolts. Is it possible to bypasss the power steering pump on the 4BT? I do not want to do the brake upghrades right away for cost reasons. And finally what kind of flywheel came on the 4BT from the factory when it was mated to the SM465. Is it dodge or chevy. Thanks to everybody for your continued assistance.

[mcinfantry]

chevy flywheel. you want just power steering? or nothing? if you want nothing just remove the pump and cover the hole with a plate.

[Altered_Auto]

I want to get rid of the P/S all togather. I might eventually want to upgrade brakes to hrdroboost but I would like to get it running and driving first. I worded my question wrong. I should have asked if I can get a belt that will work the accessories minus the P/S. Thanks.

[mcinfantry]

???? the power steering is gear driven on every cummins 4bt i have ever seen.

so i guess yes, you use the same belt you have now. since it doesnt drive the PS pump

[JimmieD]

P/S removal: What mcinfantry said. But hey, I wonder if what you think is power steering on your engine is actually the vacuum pump some were equipped with? Vacuum pump sits up topside front and is beltdriven, PS pump sits just behind timing gear case, driver's side below injection pump, and is gear driven. No magic removing it, as Lee said, pull it out and slap a plate on there.

[Altered_Auto]

I had no idea it was gear driven. I have no experience with there engines. Thanks for the tips! Also will a stock rear leaf fit in the front spring pack to give me my lift? All I can find are NOS rear springs.

[MoparNorm]

P/S removal: What mcinfantry said. But hey, I wonder if what you think is power steering on your engine is actually the vacuum pump some were equipped with? Vacuum pump sits up topside front and is beltdriven, PS pump sits just behind timing gear case, driver's side below injection pump, and is gear driven. No magic removing it, as Lee said, pull it out and slap a plate on there.

If you want power brakes youi'll need to retain that vacuum pump!

[Altered_Auto]

If you want power brakes youi'll need to retain that vacuum pump!


I do want to do something with the brakes eventually but I am on a somewhat tight time line and budget. The truck is going to have to be stored and my M37 is going to be in a mini storage facility. The joys of living in a condo!

[JimmieD]

If you want power brakes youi'll need to retain that vacuum pump!

That or use the Hydroboost power brake system which is powered by the power steering pump. The vacuum pump can be used for actucting an exhaust brake too, so don't lose it or give it away if it has one!

[CGarbee]

Meanwhile, if you want to run the engine with the power steering pump installed, but without the hydroboost or power steering installed, you can... just run a rubber line (use the higher pressure rated stuff) from the outlet over to the inlet and just let the fluid loop around... If you have three ports on the pump (like mine), just run three hoses from the nipples to a tee fitting and let her rip.

I've done it to more than one engine while running it around debugging a setup before I got around to installing the accessories... (or in one case on and elder GM product, when the power steering box failed while on the road...).

Enjoy.

[Altered_Auto]

Thanks for the advice. I will eventually want to run some accessories but I would like to get it running first. I am going to pick it up next wednesday and i have a few more questions. What kind of oil do they take? It would be nice to have a back up plan in case but I see no issue because the seller said it was one of the better old trucks they have. Also if I buy NOS u-bolts will they have enough meat to add in 3 new leaves? And one more out of left field. What rear axel does the van have? I am assuming a 14 bolt. If so it will go nice in my CJ7:)

[MoparNorm]

Geeze!
That 14 bolt will weight more than the CJ....ha!ha!

[Sickcall]

Well Altered, this is going to go way off topic but it is your thread. The best 14 bolt to use would be a DRW and convert to SRW. This would narrow the axle by 4 inches. Then when you go to put a dana44 in the front you can have it narrowed 4 inches on the long side and use a common off the shelf axle. That keeps the leaf spring on the pumpkin casting on the passenger side. This is much better than going the full width route for a streetable driver.

[Gordon Maney]

Well Altered, this is going to go way off topic but it is your thread. The best 14 bolt to use would be a DRW [dual rear wheel] and convert to SRW [single rear wheel].

This would narrow the axle by 4 inches. Then when you go to put a dana44 in the front you can have it narrowed 4 inches on the long side and use a common off the shelf axle.

That keeps the leaf spring on the pumpkin casting on the passenger side. This is much better than going the full width route for a streetable driver.

I am not understanding your third paragraph above, unable to imagine what you are saying. Please offer a bit more comment so that I can better picture what you mean.

[Altered_Auto]

Thanks for the advice. It was off topic but I am already starting to plan the disposal of the van. I am going to have to pay to store it or set in on my 10 undeveloded acres. I figure it will be easier to disassemble on flat non tick infested ground. The condo association does not take too kindly to junk vehicles parked on premisis. Thay have already taken (Stolen) one of my other ones.

[Sickcall]

Gordon, the passenger side leaf spring perch or pad on the dana 44 is cast into the pumpkin housing. When installing this axle into the narrower frame of a jeep you need to outboard the leaf springs on the frame to install the axle and use the stock perch locations. The other method is to leave your leaf springs where they are and install the stock jeep spring on the pumkin perch which is on the passenger side, and only shorten the drivers side. The amount needed would be 4" to match up with the DRW 14 bolt. It is done so often that the shortened axle is almost off the shelf.

[CGarbee]

Thanks for the advice. I will eventually want to run some accessories but I would like to get it running first. I am going to pick it up next wednesday and i have a few more questions. What kind of oil do they take? It would be nice to have a back up plan in case but I see no issue because the seller said it was one of the better old trucks they have. Also if I buy NOS u-bolts will they have enough meat to add in 3 new leaves? And one more out of left field. What rear axel does the van have? I am assuming a 14 bolt. If so it will go nice in my CJ7:)

Run 15w40 diesel rated oil of your choice (you get a lot of different opinions, but in reality they are all about the same when you put them in the engine... I am partial to Castrol Agri-Max and Shell Rotella...).

NOS u-bolts are likely to be short if you add three leafs, just go to your local heavy truck shop with one of your old ones (or measurements) and have them fab up some new ones that are longer. My local Fleetpride (former Stone Heavy Duty) will do a set in about fifteen minuter for around $40 an axle (four u-bolts with nuts/washers)...

Enjoy.

[Altered_Auto]

Thanks everybody for the help. I am going to get the truck on Wed and I will post some pics of the van and my M37 when I get them. This place is awesome!

[Altered_Auto]

I got the van on wed. Man was that a fun trip in triple didgit heat. I have One more question. Will a smallblock ZF S5-42 botl to the ford adapter plate found in the step vans? I have posted some pictures on my cardomain page http://www.cardomain.com/id/Altered_Auto Thanks eveybody for the help.

[CGarbee]

Will a smallblock ZF S5-42 botl to the ford adapter plate found in the step vans?

Yes, it will...

[Altered_Auto]

I think I found my tranny today. It is the Zf S5-42 from a 1989 F250 with a 7.3 liter diesel. It was at a scrapyard close to my house and just arrived there a few days ago. It is goung to run me about $650. I am hoping I can work out a partial trade for the TH400 and maybe the 14 bolt.

[CGarbee]

I think I found my tranny today. It is the Zf S5-42 from a 1989 F250 with a 7.3 liter diesel. It was at a scrapyard close to my house and just arrived there a few days ago. It is goung to run me about $650. I am hoping I can work out a partial trade for the TH400 and maybe the 14 bolt.

That's the transmission that I am running behind the 4BT in my M37. You'll like it. :)

[Altered_Auto]

I don,t know how i couldn't. The thing is huge and appears to be in good shape. It is caked with dirt and one of the PTO covers leaks but it shifts fine and all the gears work and feel smooth. It takes MERCON ATF right?

[CGarbee]

It takes MERCON ATF right?

Yep, I run Mercon III in mine, but you can use any of the versions... Another reason why I like mine...

The two pin plug on the driver's side of the case is for the backup light switch...

[Altered_Auto]

I got my engine out today! I did it my condos parking lot with a basic het of hand tools. Now I have to get it towed away. I am trying to donate it to my school as a project or something they can scrap for cash. I will post pics on my cardomain.com/id/altered_auto page shortly.

Now for the question. What is the best way to turn the engine over to remove the flywheel bolts. I know snap on makes a special tool for that application but I would prefer not to buy it. I was thinking about putting the tranny in reverse and using a prybar to turn the output shaft therfore turning the engine. If there is a better way i would like to know about it.

[Juan]

Now for the question. What is the best way to turn the engine over to remove the flywheel bolts. I know snap on makes a special tool for that application but I would prefer not to buy it. I was thinking about putting the tranny in reverse and using a prybar to turn the output shaft therfore turning the engine. If there is a better way i would like to know about it.

remove clutch cover, use the same prybar you mention or a big flat screwdriver for prying on the flywheel/flexplate teeths against the bellhousing.
Piece of cake. (of course somebody will jump on my throat telling it´s not the right thing to do, you can damage the teeths etc etc. but it´s what I´ve doing with my cars/trucks everytime I have to turn the engine)

[MoparNorm]

Or....remove the injectors and turn it over by using a socket on the damper bolt, that's the easiest way.

[IHWillys]

Or....remove the injectors and turn it over by using a socket on the damper bolt, that's the easiest way.

Probably safer this way too. A small amount of combustible fluid finds it's way into a cylinder(like oil past a valve seal/guide) and it could light off under compression and give one a nasty surprise while barring over.

No injectors = no compression = no chance of that happening.

Ken

[Altered_Auto]

One more question as I move along. I pulled down the back of the motor the other day and found a piece pressed into the rear of the crankshaft where my pilot bearing would be. I am using the setup from FordCummins so will I have to get it out or will it be okay in there? If I do have to have to get it out what is the best way to do it

[Altered_Auto]

I know its baan a while but I have recently started putting the truck back togather and have run into a few hanging points. 1) I am using the Hydroboost from the stepvan and I am wondering how I can convert the fittings to use the stock M37 lines. 2) I am using the ZF tranny so how do I mount the transfer case shifters and E-ebake. I am sure I will have more over the next few weeks so any insight would be helpful. Check out the progress at http://www.cardomain.com/id/Altered_Auto

[mikesta]

Hope you don't mind if I tag along on this thread. The 4bt is a great engine and I'm looking forward to seeing this truck get built.

Cheers
Mikesta

[Warren]

What does SBC mean?

SMALL BLOCK CHEVY

[JimmieD]

Several NAPA and other auto parts stores have the machinery to make up new hydraulic lines to your specs. If not there a local tractor shop can do it.

Before you get everything buttoned up you might want to check crankshaft end thrust. It is a common problem on 4BT's to have the #4 crank bearing fail. To check it you apply pressure to crankshaft backwards & forwards while measuring runout at flywheel with dial indicator. While you're at it you might want to change the timing cover oil seal and throw a new gasket on cover, they're cheap if you shop around. Also rear main seal is easy to change while the tranny is out, also strongly suggested.

One method of removing a pilot bearing is to pack the hole with grease, then use a drift punch of the correct diameter to just fit into pilot bearing center. A few raps with a hammer on drift forces the pilot bearing out by hydraulic pressure. Depending on diameter of your input shaft there were some roller bearing pilots available, such as in Dodge applications.

Suggestion: when you hook up fuel lines use a piece of clear vinyl tubing, diesel rated, between lift pump and end of metal lines. This gives a quick way to check for air in the lines at any time. Also if you have clearance/room Fleetguard has the FS-1221 fuel filter, extra capacity with a water drain on bottom.

If possible it's nice to install a new lift pump right from the start. They're relatively inexpensive, I paid around $60. Though a 4BT with a Bosch VE Injection Pump will run without a lift pump a failed diaphragm pump will DNF you. Again, cheap insurance. I've got a part # for lift pump if you need it.

[CGarbee]

My thoughts:
1) I don't remember the part numbers, but my local parts house has a large selection of adapter fittings that can be used between the M/C and the lines. Last time I did a M/C conversion, I had a couple fittings from a kit that Ray Suiter had sent out as rally door prizes. I think that Ray has the NAPA part numbers on his website... The M/C that was used with the hydroboost in the P30 van that I snagged my last Cummins out of had the same fittings as the non-boosted Bendix 1584 (1980 Chevy C30) M/C that I run in my truck...

2) I fabricated a bracket out of 1/8" plate stock, some angle iron, and a couple of spacers cut from large diameter rod stock that comes off my transmission cross member for use in mounting the t-case shift levers and the e-brake handle.

Hollar if you need a better description. I'm running a ZF S5-42 behind the 4BT in my truck with the stock transfer case...

I know its baan a while but I have recently started putting the truck back togather and have run into a few hanging points. 1) I am using the Hydroboost from the stepvan and I am wondering how I can convert the fittings to use the stock M37 lines. 2) I am using the ZF tranny so how do I mount the transfer case shifters and E-ebake. I am sure I will have more over the next few weeks so any insight would be helpful. Check out the progress at http://www.cardomain.com/id/Altered_Auto

[JimmieD]

A little thread piracy here, but is that fuel shutoff solenoid fix still working out okay? Ran into another guy that had the same problem, so that's 3! I'm still push-button start, and simply got to liking it.

[CGarbee]

A little thread piracy here, but is that fuel shutoff solenoid fix still working out okay? Ran into another guy that had the same problem, so that's 3! I'm still push-button start, and simply got to liking it.


The new solenoid that you located for me is working just fine so I'm using my push button for starting as well. I did pick up a "pull to stop" cable that is used on the military 2.5 ton trucks (M35A2 or M35A2C) with the multifuel engine and have already mounted it in my M37. Next time that the solenoid gives me problems, it's comming out and I'll just plug the spot (will use a solenoid with the plunger removed). That way, I'll eleminate having to have power for the engine to run... Meanwhile, the "pull to stop" cable is extra insurance in case it doesn't want to shut down when I turn off the power feed.

[JimmieD]

Thanks for the reminder buddy! Forgot about that 'Country Kill Switch'. I'll get right on it.

[Altered_Auto]

Thanks foe the help everybody. A few more questions. Can somebody post a link to the brake line adapters and a pic of the shifter set up. I just ordered my adapter plate so im about to get back into the project so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Altered_Auto]

And a link to Mr Suiter's web site would be helpful.

[JimmieD]

Hope the swap is progressing to expectations!

It's best on a large multi-page thread to re-state exactly what parts you're inquiring about again, so folks don't have to thumb back through 6 pages to find out. You get more replies that way.

I'll suggest again to check some of your local sources to have one or the other hose ends converted as needed, less chance of leakage and the less fittings the better, especially on brakes. Lots more vibration can occur in a 4BT truck, sometimes with unpleasant results.

[OLD DODGE]

http://www.uglytruckling.com/

[mp_tx]

Good luck with the build. I am doing the same with my truck.