Diagnosing the 2001 24V Cummins Ram

[Gordon Maney]

Given the great complexity of our truck’s computer and electronic controls, diagnosis becomes very difficult, particularly if you don’t have test equipment.

Under such circumstances, is it possible to try to prepare for long term, high mileage ownership and operation? Are there certain parts that would seem to warrant being owned just to use for substitution in testing? Because I felt I would not be qualified to diagnose accurately enough to save money, I took my truck to a large Cummins dealership. I would like to believe that they are as qualified as anyone to do this work.

I have many years of experience as a mechanic and vocational automotive instructor, but I had elected to stay back from the problem because I felt I would likely spend too much time trying to fix it and too much money from buying wrong parts; not having diagnostic equipment specific to these systems. Even having the right equipment, the Cummins dealer has had it for a week and it is not fixed yet.

Does a Cummins dealer lack any piece of equipment that a Dodge dealer would have, making it peculiar to the Dodge application?

My point here is not to criticize the Cummins dealer, because my experience as a mechanic tells me that diagnosis is not necessarily easy. My point is that I am trying to figure out how I can better prepare for future problems so I can be more self reliant.

What do you suppose people are doing? What could one own in terms of test equipment that would be useful on the late model, computer controlled engines?

What spare parts should a person own for long term operation, without seeming foolish and wasteful?

Discuss, if possible.

[Tom Petroff]

Gordon,
Like you as we get older and technoligy pases us by, it becomes harder to keep up with it. Not to mention expensive.
However I have found that by keeping Good "OEM" manuals and a few basic
Testing tools,it becomes easier.
The basic engine is still the same. It's how they manage it, that can be intimidating.
I like the obdII code scanner for reading the codes and the OEM books for
defining them,and leading you through the testing procedures.
A good Automotive "multi-meter" is a must.
Also needed is a quality fuel preasure guage with adapters.
Some vehicles will read there own codes through the"check engine" lamp,
Including some model year Dodge trucks.
Your truck like mine has the "VP44" Injection pump in it.
They turned out to be not as reliable as Cummins had hoped. And not as bad as most people make them out to be.
Clean unrestricted fuel is a must for these pumps. The earlier lift pumps where also a problem. By 2001 most of the upgrades and fixes where in place.
I keep a spare lift pump on hand,and will change it when needed.
The fact that this pump is not in the tank makes this easy.
In fact my "99" just turned 115,000 on it and I plan to change it out, along with
all fluids and filters,and the complete rear driveshaft asm. before Iowa this
year.
To me replacing u-joints and carrier bearing,along with the LP after all is cheap insurance.
I still try to do as much as I can to my own vehicles rather than dealer Technician's. There not mechanics anymore,they'er "parts swappers" IMO.
Your idea of a Cummins dealership doing the work is a valid one.
TGP

[DODGEBOYS]

GORDON what was the problem with the truck

[Gordon Maney]

GORDON what was the problem with the truck

They have had the truck for nine business days. It is still not fixed. The last judgment was that an ECM, or computer box, that had been tried earlier, was thought to be bad. The new one has been delayed by now our second winter storm. I am into a rental car for over $500 as of this writing.

[Ron in Indiana]

Gordon, sounds like you better get one of your other trucks out on the road. My son's '03 was having issues so we took it to the dealer where they proceeded to change parts including the ECM to no avail. Ended up they replaced all 6 injectors at $400 a piece, was very happy it was still under warrenty. I put an Edge controller on my '01 with the Attitude display only to find out my fuel pressure was low to nil. I installed new lift pump right away so my injector pump didn't go out. The truck has more power but with that power goes more fuel out the exhaust. The jury is still out on the best setting but hope to try it out on the trip to Crescent,IA if this weather ever cooperates. I've been to both the dealer and to a large Cummins shop with different trucks. The Cummins shop could do only so much before they ran into Dodge spec'ed systems on the truck. I hope you get your truck back soon and I wouldn't want to see that bill.

[JimmieD]

Unfortunately these things seem to be a common complaint with newer trucks. It isn't exactly the dealer's fault in some ways.

The computers control everything. The service technicians have a manual to follow, and a machine for exercising the computer. It is a step-by-step, follow the instructions method provided by Dodge. One reason it's the same expensive price to find any little or big problem is because the same steps must be followed on all diagnosis. There's no such thing as troubleshooting per se, except for whatever the computer readout diagnoses.

If Chrysler Corporation didn't determine that your exact problem might later occur, and include a test function to reveal it, the tech and service department are up against the wall! Now throw parts at it until something sticks...

If you post the problems that were occurring I might be able to track down posible causes.

JimmieD

[Gordon Maney]

The symptom was that it would, at road speed, stumble or cut out, just briefly. It began in a winter storm. I thought I was momentarily losing traction. The next day when there was no ice, it continued, so I knew it was something else.

It did it more often, then it lost ability to pull itself. It would not quit running, but it lacked power and speed.

The lift pump is fine, interestingly. The injection pump is fine. Their thought is that it was a bad, replacement ECM that has fouled them up. Our second winter storm has delayed receipt of the part.

Monday I will have had my rental car for two weeks, for a bill of $650.

[JimmieD]

I did some searching on similar problems but most results were for older 1st Gens. As the IP and LP have tested correctly some other possibilities are fuel return line, in-tank pickup & float assembly or the typical problem of air leaks in a line. As you know, something as simple as bad fuel could do it.

I guess it doesn't matter much as it's in the dealer's hands now, preventing you from troubleshooting. I just hope it's fixed quick and cheap!

[Gordon Maney]

Imagine if an individual was doing the work at home, purchased the $1,200 ECM, and believed it was bad.

"Hello, I just bought this in here, but it is bad.... can I have another?"

[JimmieD]

Ha ha, so true! I had to run down to town tonight and a guy came walking up just as I parked. He heard that sound. "Got a 4BT in there by any chance?" He's a hopeless diesel nutcase, my kind of people, and gave me loads of tips on the Cummins VE pump.

Then we walked over to his shiny '05 [I think] 24V W-3500 and he popped the hood. WOW it was beautiful and it was built too, but what a complicated machine! Electronic everything and a maze of computers.

I have to say, and I know you think about it, if it was me: I'd find a rock solid 1st Gen, a Club Cab if possible, and rebuild it from bumper to bumper, brand new everything. Full out-of-chassis build, balance, blueprint clearance and turn it up about 30%. Then I'd buy a spare everything, as injection pump, injectors, tranny parts, etc. and dig in for the duration. There's something to be said for keeping it simple....

However, he did have one beautiful truck :~ )

[Gordon Maney]

Does the first generation not have any computer at all? It has something like you talked about in your article, isn't that right, or not?

[JimmieD]

The earliest ones have no computer at all! They use the exact VE pump as found in 4BT & 4BTA's but of course it features 6 outlets instead of 4.

These pumps are EXTREMELY easy to turn up, and there's an endless list of possibilities for bringing performance up. From what I hear many are building very reliable 300 HP engines with gobs of torque. I wouldn't go that high on a long distance 'keeper' unless one can afford upkeep.

Turning them up real high puts a strain on the injection pump, and also going ballistic can blow headgaskets. There are several guys that are getting 500+ HP and ridiculous torque out of them! They can make insane power but like the old saying goes, "You play, you pay..."

No problem at all to build a strong 250 HP engine that will last, with a minimum of part$, and NO COMPUTERS! Just 190 injectors, pump adjustments and a compressor upgrade with some fat exhaust makes for a very strong and reliable 1st Gen.

[Gordon Maney]

You say, earliest. What years does that include?

Also, by compressor, you mean the turbo?



Kompressor

I saw that on the fender of a German car once.

[JimmieD]

1st Gens ran from '89 to '94. 2nd Gens came in from '95 to '02', 3rd Gen comes after, until 4th Gen.

I believe the '89 and '90 had no computer, and possibly a bit later but not sure on that. One thing's for sure, the earliest don't NEED a computer to run strong and long.

As I recall 'Kompressor' in Deutsche is Supercharger, where Turbos are 'Luft-something or other'

By compressor I'm referring to the air compressing side of the turbo as being the inducer, and the exhaust side is the exducer. Turbos are far too complicated for me to explain because I'm only learning, but in general the idea is to increase air volume and pressure. The extra pressure may not be needed really, but it's usually a by-product of higher volume.

There's a couple of ways to get there: increase size of compressor side total volume while reducing the gap between impeller wheel and housing; reducing exhaust side housing diameter, thereby causing more force upon exhaust impeller to drive compressor harder and faster; increase exhaust pipe diameter to increase exhaust flow. One shortcut is to run a hybrid turbo of carefully matched parts from 2 turbos, or run 2 turbos, one to feed the other.

On mine I purchased an HTT Stage II upgrade. This is a larger but tighter compressor housing. In effect it will transform my H1C turbo into an HX35 so it's a type of hybrid. I currently have a 16cm2 exhaust housing which is fine for what I want to do. Others might go to a 12cm2 or 9cm2 exhaust for greater force but this effectively restricts exhaust somewhat and can really drive up EGT Exhaust Gas Temperature, the death of diesels. HTT upgrades go up to Stage IV and that's really a pump.

All a diesel wants is fuel and air in, and exhaust out. The VE pump can be tweaked for WAY MORE fuel in, and the turbos can obviously be swapped for more air. Finally the exhaust can be opened up. By carefully balancing these moves virtually any power range is possible up to 500HP/1000 ft lbs torque. At the stratospheric levels you're into some real bucks and have an engine that's far less than a daily driver. 200-300 is still solid and reliable if built right.

[Tom Petroff]

Gordon,
Jimmie is correct about the 1st gen. engines. Very simple, can make big power.
The 6BTA in my Chev. K-30 has a Bosch VE pump. It's a good pump .but don't like these new ulsd fuels. It is fuel lubericated,so it suffer's.
When Cummins went to the inline oil feed pump The P series all was well.
Then they went to the VP 44 as a stop gap pump for emissions Reg.'s
And the same promblem with lubericity,start's all over again.
The last "common rail" system solves that.
I hate to say,but from what you describe, your problem is a VP 44 problem,
IMO.
Air or week flow can easily be checked by installing a clear tube in the return line and watching for bubbles.
TGP

[Gordon Maney]

Gordon,
Jimmie is correct about the 1st gen. engines. Very simple, can make big power.
The 6BTA in my Chev. K-30 has a Bosch VE pump. It's a good pump .but don't like these new ulsd fuels. It is fuel lubericated,so it suffer's.
When Cummins went to the inline oil feed pump The P series all was well.
Then they went to the VP 44 as a stop gap pump for emissions Reg.'s
And the same promblem with lubericity,start's all over again.
The last "common rail" system solves that.
I hate to say,but from what you describe, your problem is a VP 44 problem,
IMO.
Air or week flow can easily be checked by installing a clear tube in the return line and watching for bubbles.
TGP

I would not disagree with you, but they did try a new injection pump and that did not do it. The second ECM should certainly be here by today, so.... hopefully that will do it.

The clear line idea is good. Too bad there would not be a good way to have one permanently.

How does the common rail system solve that? This is 2003 and up?

[Tom Petroff]

Excuse me, I did not read where they already tried the pump. Thought it was just the ECM and various sensors, and the LP and IP checked out.
This engine should be throwing all kind's of codes? I have seen the IP fail
with No codes at all,although rare.
03 and up is common rail. I have not done much reading on them yet.
But basicly it's a high preasure pump that supplies fuel to all the injectors at the same time. Then each injector is triggered electronicly for rate and timing,
much like a fuel injected gas engine. The high preasure pump has very few moving parts.
Someone can explain better I'm sure.
Hope they get it figured out soon. I'm sure your getting aggravated by now.
I sure woul be.
BTW,
Not to hi-jack the thread but How's Mom?
TGP

[JimmieD]

I wonder if a P-100 injection pump would be a viable upgrade being as it's a 'keeper'? That and a piston or electric lift pump would solve some problems, if such is compatible with computers. I could look into it if that would help.

[Tom Petroff]

Jim,
I don't believe it is computer controled at all. From what I remember it's just an inline pump that is cooled and lubricated by engine oil.
My-be some of the very last ones had some small electronics.
I do know that the timeing cover is different between pump styles.
"P" pumps have four mounting studs like the "VP" pump but I think it is still different. Besides all the lines.
If ya don't have anything else to do today look into this and lets see how far off I am,LOL
Take Care
TGP

[JimmieD]

I may be way off with the P-100 thought. Only Cummins I've researched is the 1st Gen and with those there's lots of guys that have upgraded to P-100's. Though it's a very good hi-pressure pump it may not work for the very reasons you describe. I was tossing it out to see if maybe you knew ha haha! Sorry, Gordon, wish I had good solid answers on this but I don't.

[Gordon Maney]

Excuse me, I did not read where they already tried the pump. Thought it was just the ECM and various sensors, and the LP and IP checked out.
This engine should be throwing all kind's of codes? I have seen the IP fail
with No codes at all,although rare.
03 and up is common rail. I have not done much reading on them yet.
But basicly it's a high preasure pump that supplies fuel to all the injectors at the same time. Then each injector is triggered electronicly for rate and timing,
much like a fuel injected gas engine. The high preasure pump has very few moving parts.
Someone can explain better I'm sure.
Hope they get it figured out soon. I'm sure your getting aggravated by now.
I sure woul be.
BTW,
Not to hi-jack the thread but How's Mom?
TGP

I will post more later; I am working on an issue just now.

My mother is doing pretty good, still having some swelling. She is impatient with this, since she has been so active.

As for the truck, I got it back today. I will explain more later about the final situation. The bill was $2,099, and that includes two new batteries that I asked for. My car rental bill was $740. A pretty expensive program.

Later....

[Tom Petroff]

That's good news Gordon!
Price not near as bad as I thought it would be. Considering all that they tried,and the amount of time spent.
Hopefully,it will be trouble free for a long while.
Glad mom is doing better too! As long as they remain "Sassy" you know all is well, At least this hold true with My Mother!,ha
TGP

[Gordon Maney]

That's good news Gordon!
Price not near as bad as I thought it would be. Considering all that they tried,and the amount of time spent.
Hopefully,it will be trouble free for a long while.
Glad mom is doing better too! As long as they remain "Sassy" you know all is well, At least this hold true with My Mother!,ha
TGP

Trying to be proactive, it makes me wonder what parts a person would want to be on the watch for, given opportunities to gather used trucks and parts as possible.

One thing I read about as a preventive habit is the application of dielectric grease to electrical connectors on a periodic basis.

[cfarther]

Gordon,

The addition of a fuel gauge is a good insurance policy, my 2001.5 is on the 4th lift pump at 132k. It seems the lift pump was designed to push fuel not suck it, so the long distance from the tank to the engine may be a problem, so owners have had good luck relocating the pump close to the tank.

You can check you own ecm (engine control module) and pcm (powertrain control module) codes by : turning the key on (not hitting the starter) and off three times and leaving on the third time, don't crank the engine, just turn to the start position. The codes if any exist will flash in the odometer window, if you see ecu or pcu _ _ _ _ _ there are no codes for that module. Of course to decode you can go to several websites including the turbodieselregister.

1st Gen 89'-93' - VE injection pumps - rotary, 1 piston
2nd Gen 94'-98.5 - P7100 inline pump - 6 pistons
2nd Gen 98.5'-2002 - VP44 - rotary pump
3rd Gen 2003 present - HPCR - High Pressure Common Rail

Some early 98.5 vp44's were known to have an internal clearance problem, this was especially notable when a performance box was attached.

Most vp44's if in good condition will pull fuel past a poor performing or dead lift pump, but this can cause unreasonable stress on the vp. The vp44 is both cooled and lubricated by diesel fuel, while the older p7100 is cooled and lubricated by oil. Thus if the diesel fuel supply to the vp44 is diminished, approximately 70% of fuel through the vp44 is returned to the tank, the vp44 can wear prematurely or fail. This is why it is critical to monitor the fuel pressure in any Cummins equiped truck between the years of 98.5 (24valve) and 2002. Also with the advent of low sulfur diesel fuel, an additive is not out of the question.