Why buy a Diesel?

[Jonas Smith]

I have fallen prey to thinking that a diesel truck is "economical", what a load of crap. That may have been true in the mid 90's but no more. They are more expensive to purchase, more expensive to maintain, parts when it breaks down are outrageous, and diesel is more expensive than gas. Longevity you say? I say BS. I've replaced 3 lift pumps and one injection pump and an oil pressure sender before 100K.
I miss my crappy old '87 crewcab with 350 EFI gas motor. Worst thing to happen was I replaced the motor @ 250kmi, but it was 1/2 the cost (Installed!) of the injection pump on my Dodge 3500.

[Charles Talbert]

I've installed a bunch in M37's & am currently doing our 1st install in a C3-PW-126. I've had 0 problems with Cummins engines & all clients have been well pleased. I understand there have been problems with the later all electronic engines & that the injection pump used on those is extremely costly. It is a good idea to use a lubrication supplement in fuel, fuel suppliers have produced literature saying it isn't needed, but I'll have to disagree. I've run Cummins engines for 40 years, have experienced nothing but the best service. I have a 220 Cummins now that is a 1957 year model, had it's 1st complete overhaul in 1978, still running today. Uses no oil, has had no money spent since '78 except for 1 water pump & the routine oil & filter changes. The later all electronic stuff is more trouble prone & repairs cost more when problems come up. The mechanical engines like the 4BTA & 6BTA engines that we use in our repower packages have proved very reliable & economical to date. Don't let 1 bad apple spoil the whole crop.

[Sickcall]

Jonas, I would have to agree, that diesel trucks are not more economical to operate and I am sure we will hear different from the pro diesel crowd. I once calculated the difference in diesel fuel cost over regular gas,with the mileage factor, and it would take over 300,000 miles of driving just to pay for the diesel upgrade from the dealer. I am sure this has changed considerably of late because of the high cost of the diesel fuel. The other additional cost is the oil changes which are much more frequent and costly on a diesel. Changing 14 qts of oil every 3000 miles is not saving anyone any money as far as I can see. About 75 bucks at Jiffey Lube.

I have owned 3 diesels to date and only own them because I want a four door pick-up truck. They are about the only engine available in a 4 door on the used market in a heavy duty truck. Do the engines last longer, yes I can not disagree with that. But who needs an engine that out lasts the vehicle? The only true necessity for a diesel in my opinion is for someone who does a lot of towing/hauling, and I mean alot.

[Gordon Maney]

My Cummins powered truck goes twice as far on a gallon of fuel as my V10 Dodge could, and the V10 truck had some very expensive repairs necessary in a shorter mileage period. First, a pair of cylinder heads, then another pair of cylinder heads, and also a short block, all before 36,000 miles.

I have nearly 100,000 miles on my 2001 HO Cummins and it has required nothing in the way of repairs. I still have the same lift pump, and have done nothing more than changing oil and the several filters used by the engine.

Charles, tell us a bit more about the pre-computer diesels. It would be interesting to learn more about them, how recently they were made, and any other thoughts you wanted to share.

You mention a 220 Cummins..... what sort of truck do you have that uses that engine?

[HWooldridge]

I'm sure many folks have an experience to share and will come down on one side or the other...

My 93 Ford dually crew cab had the 7.3 diesel without turbo. It was on its way to 300K when I sold it and the one problem I experienced was that the cruise control quit one day. I never fixed it and drove with my foot. I changed oil filters only every 3000 miles with both oil and filter every 6000. This never seemed to adversely affect it but most of those miles were open highway.

We have a family friend who owned a '94 Ford with turbo and she had nothing but trouble with it. However, their family was not known for mechanical ability or preventive maintenance - they used to have a nice John Deere tractor with loader that was rusting away because they ran it out of oil one day - so who can say how many "problems" are brought on by a careless owner?

I drove a new '97 Ford diesel with turbo for a few days and it was so noisy that I took it back to the dealer and got a 460 gasser, which I am still driving today. It is a gas hog but has 160K miles and runs well - although it needs a good tune-up from someone with diagnostic capability.

I occasionally haul some pretty heavy trailers and like a diesel but for the average person, I still think a gas powerplant is the better choice for economy and ease of service.

[steved]

From the other side of the fence...

My dad has a 99 2500 CTD with 252k on it...only replaced two LPs, fan support bearing, and oil pressure sending unit...changes oil every 5k...The only other thing he has done to that truck is replace the clutch at 200k, balljoints at 86k, and had the fifth gear fixed on the 5spd. He has LESS THAN $2000 in repairs for all those miles...and he uses it. He gets 21mpg.

My 99 had 201k when I traded it...2 LPs and transmissions were my only expense...I got around 18mpg average with a couple 25mpg+ trips in that 200k...the tranny was the big expense at $3k, but it lasted too...

This 2004.5 I have, had approximately $5k in warranty work done to it when I first got it...CP3 was replaced ($3k), clutch issues, etc...I currently have 92k on it and have did nothing to it out of pocket...I have added a bunch of goodies (non-performance) and routinely get 19mpg highway (16-17mpg in town) running a 6spd and 4.10s rears (have gotten as high as 23mpg)...I actually get better mileage than ny boss's Audi A4. Oh, and I change my oil every 10k miles...

You either get a good one or a bad one though...the newer the diesel, the less reliable they seem to get...our 99s were simply good trucks. The 95 CTD my dad owned would routinely get him 28mpg (hand calc'd) on the highway...it never gave an issue.

While your 350CI gasser might be better for your needs...the fact I need to hook to a trailer weighing 8k (trailer and M37) and I can pull almost 15mpg out on the highway towing that trailer and not be worried about whether I will need to get into the slow lane, is well worth the added cost of owning a diesel...It is all about what you need...what works for you...some of us would not be happy with a gasser towing/hauling what we do, as regularly as we do...

If I didn't have the M37, didn't drive cross country ever couple months, and didn't want to keep the truck till it's dead, I would have probably bought a 1500 ram...again it is all about need...I rack too many miles up too quick to have a gasser IMO...

steved

[CGarbee]

Diesel and gas cost the same in my area... I can run biodiesel that I make in the garage from used fryer oil for about 85 cents a gallon without any noticable change in performance. I'm getting 17mpg when running 75mph in my Cummins 4BT powered M37 with a M101 trailer in tow on the highway, and the same milage as a general rule with a mix of city/offroad driving (ie, when I'm not on a trip).
Back when I first did the conversion from the stock flathead to a diesel in my M37, I figured that it would take seven years to pay off the differnce in cost between rebuilding a dead flathead and converting to a diesel, and that was based on my driving the truck much less than I actually am...

For a new truck: I'll go with a diesel. I like the increased milage (ie, range between fill ups) and lack of emisionsions inspections... And yes, I am the kind of person who drives a vehicle until the body falls off the frame and the engine is the only thing left...

[steved]

lack of emisionsions inspections...

This might be coming to an end with the 07s...they have a bunch of emission regulations to meet...I can't see them not enforcing some inspection of the 07s...

steved

[CGarbee]

This might be coming to an end with the 07s...they have a bunch of emission regulations to meet...I can't see them not enforcing some inspection of the 07s...

steved

True, but so far our legislature has made no moves toward amending the inspection laws to account for this... and we don't have emission testing for gas engines in 2/3 of the counties in my state...
Even when we do have to worry about emission inspections for diesels (yes, I agree that it will happen to us at some point), I would still go with the diesel for a lot of the "pro" reasons previously stated by everyone...

[Sickcall]

You are right Gordon as there are many "pro" reasons to own a diesel, but in my opinion not economics. How much is the diesel option at the dealer these days, 5,000 dollars? Last week diesel was 50 cents more a gallon than regular but today it is only 10. Even with the cost of fuel being the same how many miles would you have to drive for the diesel to pay for itself?

[Charles Talbert]

It's up to the individuals personal needs. 4 cylinders in an M37 will do 20+ MPG in normal driving conditions at 55MPH. 3,000 mile oil changes aren't necessary in a diesel unless you are doing lots of short trip runs or some other special circumstance situations. You should be able to go at least twice that distance if using premium quality oil & filters. True some cheaper oils don't have the additive packages blended in that will protect for the extended drain intervals. A bypass filter added to the full flow filter will significantly extend drain intervals too, oil analysis has proven that beyond question. You will likely discover more advantages to diesel power if you take the time to explore all the avenues you can take advantage of by using diesel engines over gasoline. Longivity alone is a big issue over gas engines if the engine is properly maintained. I've never owned a diesel that cost more to maintain than a gasser.

[Jonas Smith]

Well, I'm not talking about the 4bt retrofits. Sorry if you thought I was digging your business. I was not, in fact I have (2) 4bt engines I'm going to be putting in vehicles myself. A Power Wagon, and a CJ jeep type vehicle. I've even toyed with the idea of putting a 6AT in a jeep, but I already have the 4bt. The thing about those early diesels, is that they are all mechanical, and easily repaired. The later electronically controlled ones seem to have the problems. The thing that really turns me on to the 4bT retrofit in the Power Wagon as a daily driver is the fuel economy and power over the original engine. But I have purchased the used takeout 4BT's years ago at a very reasonable price. Not close to what they are selling for now.

I do not buy the longevity issue over a gas motor either. my Father has a '94 with a 360/auto 4x4 and over 250K mi. Never had to repair anything on the power train, it even has the original exaust.

I have treated my '01 3500 well with regular service and Amzoil use. Fleetguard filters and whatnot, but at 100k mi, It has cost me quite a bit more per mile than a gas vehicle would. My 350 EFI truck towed the same loads I have behind the 3500 with no problems, and I usally stay in the slow lane anyway. If you are driving 70 MPH with a power wagon on the trailer, then you deserve whatever happens to you, I just hope nobody else is injured in the process.

I'm into my 3500 too much money to sell it, but if a late 80's w350 crewcab was available, I would be very tempted to put a Magnum 360 in it and use that as a daily driver/ tow vehicle.

[steved]

How much is the diesel option at the dealer these days, 5,000 dollars?


Actually, $5555. That's what my 2004.5 600CTD set me back...but at the same time, their resale values reflect the CTD by giving you more in return...

If you are worried about whether a diesel will pay for itself, then obviously you either don't have a need for or want one...or have never experienced one...

Most guys don't really need one, but...I will point this out...take a 3500 truck, tow heavy with it on a regular basis...which one do you think will last longer? Gasser or diesel?? Which one will get better mileage towing heavy?? And when even compared to a bigblock, which is going to tow easier??

Again, it is a personal choice whether you buy one...you money, your needs, your wants.

Some of us don't have the luxury of trading trucks all the time and expect the one we buy to actually hold up for the long haul...


steved

[MoparNorm]

Looks like I missed all the excitement today!
As for economic reasons, in one of my earlier posts here I did the math based upon diesel and gas at the same price, fuel was around $2.50 per gallon then, the break even point was at around 3 years, depending upon the mileage driven, approx. 25,000 per year. My 2002 is trouble free and driven daily.
http://photos.imageevent.com/moparnorm/dixonautoshop/websize/DCP_2843.JPG

This load in a gas 440 gave me approx. 7 mpg, in a ferd 7.3, 13.9 mpg, in the Dodge approx 16-19 depending upon the type of driving (there are a lot of hills here). For economic reasons, for longevity, for reliablility, I'll never own another gasoline motor, in ANY size vehicle.
As CG noted, you can run Bio, P100 veggie and a plethora of alternative cost fuels without harm, making the economy comparison not even close. With 20,000 lbs the Cummins thinks it's empty....
MN

[steved]

As CG noted, you can run Bio, P100 veggie and a plethora of alternative cost fuels without harm, making the economy comparison not even close.
MN


I will only state the while guys are running pure B100, the 3rd gen's CRD 5.9L are only recommended for use with 5% bio (B5) and the 6.7L is only recommended for use with 20% (B20)...

I'm not sure what the 1st/2nd gen CTD are ok to run, but I do know that guys report seal issues (swelling) with bio diesel.

But as noted, guys run B100 without reports of much issue.

steved

[Jonas Smith]

For economic reasons, for longevity, for reliablility, I'll never own another gasoline motor, in ANY size vehicle.
MN

I understand what your saying, but from my point of view, with my driving a expensive CTD that has needed repair, and my Father putting double the mileage on a 360 gasser (and he hauls a 4 place horse trailer up and down the east coast from Maine to FLA and points in between), I'm just saying the new diesel engines dont seem to be as reliable as the old gassers or 6BT cummins engines. My Carpool friend had to put a new engine in his '99 power stroke at 200k to the tune of $10K and the new engine is'nt running properly now either.
I just am not seeing the economy, longevity, or reliability that you are talking about that is'nt the same you would fing in a 360MAG

I own my 3500 free and clear. I love the truck and I love the towing capability it has, I'm just sick of paying out the nose to drive it.

[W_A_Watson_II]

I'm in the middle of deciding on either trading off the ferd V-10 and moving up to a real truck, a Dodge 5.9 Diesel.

My fern has a 120,000 mile life time average MPG of 13.25, and it gets 15-16 on highway non-towing as long as I keep it under 70 MPH (9-10 MPG Towing).

I hear that a Dodge 5.9 Diesel non-towing will get 19 MPG on the highway, or about 25% greater MPG.

I'm running a good 30K miles a year now, so I'd use about 375 fewer gallons of fuel. At $2.50 a gallon, that's only $937.50 savings, so even in three years I'd only save about $2,800 in fuel.

With the 5.9 Option being $4,888 Invoice, and hoping to be in that range, it would take over 5 years to break even and that's not including any fuel cost or maintance cost differences.

So buying for economics is not likely these days.

[Sickcall]

Steved, please go back and read my original post you will see that I do own a diesel, have owned 3, and have driven many more, and do not have a need for one as I do not tow/haul on a regular basis.

I understand the "pros" of owning a diesel, but again I will say that economics is not one of them. Charles has made the exception, a 4bt in a M-37.

I am a licensed diesel engineer and extensive operational/maintenance experience on many different engines in marine appplications. Those being anything from old Lake Union tug boat engines to the new large low speed MAN-BW main propulsion engines used shipboard today. Atlas, Enterprise, EMD, Nohab-Polar, Alco, Sultzer, MAN, BW, Cooper Vesmeer, Nordbreg, Fairbanks-Moorse, those are just the ones off the top of my head. For the last 30 years we have not even used diesel as the primary fuel, instead burning a less expensive residual fuel oil refered to as Bunker Fuel Oil.

How many head bolts do you think are on a cylinder cover that has a 90cm bore piston?

[steved]

Steved, please go back and read my original post you will see that I do own a diesel, have owned 3, and have driven many more, and do not have a need for one as I do not tow/haul on a regular basis.

I understand the "pros" of owning a diesel, but again I will say that economics is not one of them. Charles has made the exception, a 4bt in a M-37.

I am a licensed diesel engineer and extensive operational/maintenance experience on many different engines in marine appplications. Those being anything from old Lake Union tug boat engines to the new large low speed MAN-BW main propulsion engines used shipboard today. Atlas, Enterprise, EMD, Nohab-Polar, Alco, Sultzer, MAN, BW, Cooper Vesmeer, Nordbreg, Fairbanks-Moorse, those are just the ones off the top of my head. For the last 30 years we have not even used diesel as the primary fuel, instead burning a less expensive residual fuel oil refered to as Bunker Fuel Oil.

How many head bolts do you think are on a cylinder cover that has a 90cm bore piston?


#6 and #8 fuel oil? Yes, I know what bunker oil is...and there are specific reasons to use it in certain applications and NOT in others.

Large diesels are significantly different than those used our light trucks...and you really are comparing apples to oranges.

And I will restate...you either have a need/use for a diesel, want a diesel, or don't want a diesel. It is a personal choice and I would probably still own one even if diesels became more expensive to own...just because. And some of us don't need/use an economical reason to make our decision.

If you are looking for reason NOT to own one, then IMO, you probably don't really want to own one...


steved

[JimmieD]

Steved, please go back and read my original post you will see that I do own a diesel, have owned 3, and have driven many more, and do not have a need for one as I do not tow/haul on a regular basis.

I understand the "pros" of owning a diesel, but again I will say that economics is not one of them. Charles has made the exception, a 4bt in a M-37.

I am a licensed diesel engineer and extensive operational/maintenance experience on many different engines in marine appplications. Those being anything from old Lake Union tug boat engines to the new large low speed MAN-BW main propulsion engines used shipboard today. Atlas, Enterprise, EMD, Nohab-Polar, Alco, Sultzer, MAN, BW, Cooper Vesmeer, Nordbreg, Fairbanks-Moorse, those are just the ones off the top of my head. For the last 30 years we have not even used diesel as the primary fuel, instead burning a less expensive residual fuel oil refered to as Bunker Fuel Oil.

How many head bolts do you think are on a cylinder cover that has a 90cm bore piston?

Seems to me you're defeating your own argument! Of all of those engines listed in your post which ones could be ECONOMICALLY REPLACED with a gasser engine and still ECONOMICALLY do the job? None.

Another point: does one desire to rebuild on average every 175-200,000 miles, or would one prefer to go for 1,000,000-1,250,000 miles between rebuilds? That's a 5:1 rebuild ratio.

Lastly, if not for ECONOMICS and rock solid reliability then why does every single over the road trucking company and every single long and short distance railroad and the huge majority of commercial marine applications use diesel? Because they like the smell of fuel oil? Seen a Peterbilt, Mack or Freightliner gasser lately? I don't think so.....

[steved]

Seen a Peterbilt, Mack or Freightliner gasser lately? I don't think so.....


This made me laf, I was just looking at a old civilian 10 wheeled truck chassis (GMC??) with a gasser straight six!! I think it was either an old dump or old concrete truck...

steved

[JimmieD]

We should best look at the real complaints regarding the curent diesel rigs. All of these catastrophic expenses now connected to diesels are primarily caused by complex and expensive modifications to the basic design in the case of 1st Gen Cummins. The early engines were the stuff of legends and that's how Cummins made their place in the world of propulsion. What happened?

Greed. Folks decided they wanted MORE POWER and that has a price tag. Folks decided they wanted a whole truck full of sissy creature comforts, automatic this and automatic that so they don't have to actually think or do anything. Climate control A/C? Low fuel alert? Heated seats and heated mirrors? Lighted visor mirrors? A truck with every single function and control given over to operation by a complex computerized system with no user test or default over-ride mode and no hope of diagnosis of problems? YOU ASKED FOR IT!

The big 3 built their vehicles based on surveys and questionaires of what PEOPLE WANTED! The problem is that in general people are too lazy and ignorant and self-serving to ask for what the NEED, instead of every imaginable fluffy feel-good little item to add to the momentary experience that they WANT.

I go into a deli and order roast beef on french with extra Swiss and lots of mustard. "Did you want tomato?" No. "Did you want pickles?" No. "Did you want jalapeno peppers?" No. "Did you want lettuce?" No. "Did you want the Western Smoked Barbecue Teriyaki Ranch Sweet & Sour Secret Sauce?" Uh, no. "Onions?" No. I want a blasted sandwich because I'm hungry and I'll faint if you don't get on it soon. I eat and I'm satisfied and get back to more life.

Next person wants all of the fixings plus whatever is in the stainless steel tubs, trays, or refrigerator, plus potato/macaroni/spinach/veggie surprise salad and a soft drink with God knows what in its contents and a bag of Onion Ranch Barbeque Spicey Hot potato chips. One hour later they're bent over the rail wondering why they have to eat anti-acids and feel like they been punched in the gut by a Sumo wrestler.

The current situation with new diesel trucks is a result of a population that lacks reserve, common sense, personal initiative, modesty, simplicity, and self-enacted actions, preferring instead to let other people and things do the work for them. That's not free and it never has been......

[Charles Talbert]

Actually, $5555. That's what my 2004.5 600CTD set me back...but at the same time, their resale values reflect the CTD by giving you more in return...

If you are worried about whether a diesel will pay for itself, then obviously you either don't have a need for or want one...or have never experienced one...

Most guys don't really need one, but...I will point this out...take a 3500 truck, tow heavy with it on a regular basis...which one do you think will last longer? Gasser or diesel?? Which one will get better mileage towing heavy?? And when even compared to a bigblock, which is going to tow easier??

Again, it is a personal choice whether you buy one...you money, your needs, your wants.

Some of us don't have the luxury of trading trucks all the time and expect the one we buy to actually hold up for the long haul...


steved

This is good Steve, thanks for posting it, it's a good common sense point of view that can be easily applied to everyone's individual situation. We either need it & can put it to good use for our benefit & gain or we don't. No question "lemons" do show up on occasion in every breed. Sounds as if Jonas may have gotten one that is more trouble prone than the majority has been. This being an established fact in his mind, I can easily see why his opinion is what it is. When I make a purchase, it too is with the long haul in mind. In my mind the real savings come after the vehicle is free & clear & still provides years of good service at a minimal cost. I've found that to be true with diesels, especially Cummins. The majority of complaints I've heard from owners concerning the current production Dodge trucks with Cummins engines is this. "If only the rest of the truck was as good as the engine."

[Charles Talbert]

We should best look at the real complaints regarding the curent diesel rigs. All of these catastrophic expenses now connected to diesels are primarily caused by complex and expensive modifications to the basic design in the case of 1st Gen Cummins. The early engines were the stuff of legends and that's how Cummins made their place in the world of propulsion. What happened?

Greed. Folks decided they wanted MORE POWER and that has a price tag. Folks decided they wanted a whole truck full of sissy creature comforts, automatic this and automatic that so they don't have to actually think or do anything. Climate control A/C? Low fuel alert? Heated seats and heated mirrors? Lighted visor mirrors? A truck with every single function and control given over to operation by a complex computerized system with no user test or default over-ride mode and no hope of diagnosis of problems? YOU ASKED FOR IT!

The big 3 built their vehicles based on surveys and questionaires of what PEOPLE WANTED! The problem is that in general people are too lazy and ignorant and self-serving to ask for what the NEED, instead of every imaginable fluffy feel-good little item to add to the momentary experience that they WANT.

I go into a deli and order roast beef on french with extra Swiss and lots of mustard. "Did you want tomato?" No. "Did you want pickles?" No. "Did you want jalapeno peppers?" No. "Did you want lettuce?" No. "Did you want the Western Smoked Barbecue Teriyaki Ranch Sweet & Sour Secret Sauce?" Uh, no. "Onions?" No. I want a blasted sandwich because I'm hungry and I'll faint if you don't get on it soon. I eat and I'm satisfied and get back to more life.

Next person wants all of the fixings plus whatever is in the stainless steel tubs, trays, or refrigerator, plus potato/macaroni/spinach/veggie surprise salad and a soft drink with God knows what in its contents and a bag of Onion Ranch Barbeque Spicey Hot potato chips. One hour later they're bent over the rail wondering why they have to eat anti-acids and feel like they been punched in the gut by a Sumo wrestler.

The current situation with new diesel trucks is a result of a population that lacks reserve, common sense, personal initiative, modesty, simplicity, and self-enacted actions, preferring instead to let other people and things do the work for them. That's not free and it never has been......

Great post Jim. I'm even hearing from my Cummins Rep that calls on me here at the shop weekly that folks are complaining that the latest generation of Cummins engines no longer "sound like diesels." Are folks hard to please or what?

[steved]

I have noticed a trend in the CTDs...

The 1st gens:

These are the mechanical 12 valve engines
Average mid 20s mpg, pretty much consistant across the board.
Almost completely mechanically controlled
Lowest HO/TQ rating (160 and 180HPs)
Most reliable of the CTDs
Very few issues (usually the body fell apart around the drivetrain)

The 2nd gens:

These are the 24 valve engines brought out in 1998.5.
Average around 20mpg (but they vary from the mid teens to the mid 20s)
Electronic controlled injection pump, electric LP, some sensors.
Mid HP ratings (215/235/250HP)
Pretty reliable.
However a failed LP will eventually kill the IP at a cost of $2k. Some sensors will cause you to sit also. Cracked exhaust manifolds are common.


The 3rd gens:

These are the new CRDs (2003+)
Average around 15mpg (but vary from single digits to 20+mpg)
Electronic everything...(the IP is a better design though, but the LP is still questionable)
Highest HP of the CTDs to date (305/325HP)
Questionable reliability
More issues (dropped valve guides, burnt pistons, dead LPs, dead CP3s, sensor nightmares, wiring issues, vibration issues, etc)


1st gen 6.7L CTD

2007+ CRDs...I won't even touch these because there isn't any significant info on them yet...



This is the trend I have seen. If I had not been pushed to buy a truck in the rush I did, I would have hunted up a 1st gen CTD (or kept my 2nd gen)...typically, as we "improve" on the old design, the less reliability we have...

steved

[JimmieD]

One last and most relevant item for discussion: The environmental lobby and Save the Planet crowd. Maybe you're one of them [generic address not pointed at anyone here!!] and feel that we must do EVERYTHING we can to clean up the environment and give Mother Nature an extended health spa treatment. While we're at it we'll cordon off any piece of public real estate that is scenic or otherwise and turn it over to socialist groups which will exclude the rightful property owners [us, as in U.S.A citizens] and everyone but themselves from use of it.

The cause of pollution is not global warming or inefficient engines. It starts with industrial pollution, railroad/truck engines and stone age surface transportation systems. A vehicle releases something like 85%-95% more pollutants at idle or crawl speed than it does at cruising speed.

Intersections are placed in roadways to allow a change of direction and stoplights are there to prevent collisions by ignorant lamebrains who can't slow down or stop, without help, to see if anybody is coming before they pull out or change direction. Most cities use stoplights to SLOW TRAFFIC to increase local business revenues, because local business revenues pay a lot of bills. What happens when you take the 'Business Highway' turnoffs? S-l-o-w d-o-w-n-n-n-n.

In addition the Environmental lobbies have been ALLOWED to take control of our politics, governance, businesses, transportation, manufacturing, recreation, lifestyle/living, taxes, fees, and vehicles for their own self-serving desires! "STOP THE POLLUTION AT ANY COST!!" is their slogan.

Simply addressing the issues of transportation of a mass populace in a realistic way would improve the situation immeasurably but you'll never see it in your lifetime. If they want to mandate something how about this: A quota system of business hours so that a % open at 6 am, 7 am, 8 am, 9 am, 10 am, 11 am and 12 am? Manufacturing can be performed at any hour of the day or night, rather than 6-2 or 7-3 or 8-4 or 9-5. Only businesses that have active customer interactions during daylight hours NEED to keep the shopkeeper hours. Instead the whole nation targets 9-5 as the business day. What's that do to transportation of a population? Gridlock. Gridlock POLLUTION. Keep the traffic moving and the problem is 85%-95% solved.

Instead of truthfully and intelligently addressing the many real problems that exist in America and the world which actually cause the planetary pollution a few 'target' scapegoats have been selected, because it plays best to bleeding hearts who don't mind being trampeled and who believe whatever they're told by groups that wave the environmental flag and colors. Vehicles are an easy target because the need to meet increased levels of 'pollution control' justifies insane price tags at the window sticker and the gas/diesel pump so that mfgrs. willingly co-operate. Insurance companies like it as a bigger ticket on policies, governments like it as higher car fee revenues, and various fat cats love the ka-ching on a daily basis. You pay for it.

The eventual cost of that is fantastically complicated vehicles that can only maintain their ability to do the job of transportation of people and goods for about 2-3 years at best, sometimes MUCH LESS. No hope of ever regaining control either, because the mass population is self-serving, apathetic, generally mindless and fully programmed to swallow it all from kindergarten on up. They also want fully automatic machines that do everything for them instead of doing it for themselves. Matter of fact, give them a computer control that automatically does the automatic so they don't even have to push a button. The Servo Society.

[steved]

One last and most relevant item for discussion: The environmental lobby and Save the Planet crowd.

I will only add that the diesel is used widely in Europe because they are more efficient than gassers. The auto makers of THIS COUNTRY are selling the SAME MODELS over seas with diesel power plants...I feel cheated.

We ought to be proud of our EPA (even though it costs us at every step), we do have one of the cleanest places to live in the world. Take a look at China, they have polluted some of their rivers so badly with industrial wastes that the water cannot be used for drinking water...

I also agree with the gridlock theory. I actually work for a company with "flex hours"...I leave before rush hour going to and returning from work (saves me upwards of an hour per day in travel time). I also work from home one day a week. By avoiding rush hour, I save about $15/week on fuel...not driving a single day saves me an additional $15. I feel, as you do, that if traffic jams were eliminated at KNOWN problem places, we would save a lot in fuel...I also feel that if every station was retrofitted with vapor recovery equipment, that would significantly help...

But one underlying fact regarding fuel usage is operator error...we have become so specialized that a lot of us don't know how to check the pressure in our tires. General preventative maintenance, making sure the car is operating properly, properly inflated tires, and most of all, driver habits play a big role in fuel mileage which is a direct relation to the amount of emissions generated...

steved

[JimmieD]

Yes, and yes indeed, Operator Error is the foundation of American vehicle design principles as well as the crux of the problem in many cases!

i was surprised to see that in European cities it is mandated that vehicles SHUT OFF THEIR ENGINES while waiting at a railroad crossing. MANY rail crossings there with frequent trains, so that's a significant donation to lower pollution! What if that could be implemented in American cities? How about if folks on the freeways crawling at 1-3 mph in rush hour traffic were required by law, and stop lights, to stop and shut off the engine until traffic flow ahead resumes!!? Stalled vehicles pay huge fines for blocking traffic? Is that too complicated? Simple, and up to an 85% decrease in pollution.

The EPA concept is good to me, the implementation and manipulation and backdoor agendas are totally disgusting to me. I am a conservationist and ecologist and have been my entire life. Unfortunately it is now taken to the same limits as America's eating habits. Have you seen the waistlines lately? Morbid obesity is near the #1 health problem in America today! 300 to 400 lbs people are the common sight. EPA is suffering from obesity from stuffing itself on power and control and money, money, money but mindless or in total disregard of the real needs in the nation in my opinion.

[steved]

i was surprised to see that in European cities it is mandated that vehicles SHUT OFF THEIR ENGINES while waiting at a railroad crossing. MANY rail crossings there with frequent trains, so that's a significant donation to lower pollution! What if that could be implemented in American cities? How about if folks on the freeways crawling at 1-3 mph in rush hour traffic were required by law, and stop lights, to stop and shut off the engine until traffic flow ahead resumes!!? Stalled vehicles pay huge fines for blocking traffic? Is that too complicated? Simple, and up to an 85% decrease in pollution.



They have started to implement a "no idle" law in NJ and NY for trucks. They cannot idle for more than 5 minutes at a truck stop before they are required (by law) to shut them off or they risk getting a $200 fine. I believe I have also heard something about a similar deal in rest areas in VA?? I think this is going to be a new "wave" of nationwide laws soon...

Some of the trucks are also programmed to run a certain way based on mileage...if the truck doesn't average a certain mileage, it will not allow the driver to run the truck hard enough to drop it further...sucks in a way, but at least you are assured a certain MPG is maintained...better MPG equals less emissions.

If you notice, a lot of the OTR trucks now have a little diesel powered generator/environmental control on the passenger side, in front of the rear wheels...these are being used by companies to (GASP!) save money on fuel, with an added benefit of reduced emissions for us (they don't see that though!!)

Being I work on projects that involve EPA, I guess I don't see them as that bad...I see a lot more $$ wasted in other branches of Gov.

steved

[JimmieD]

They have started to implement a "no idle" law in NJ and NY for trucks. They cannot idle for more than 5 minutes at a truck stop before they are required (by law) to shut them off or they risk getting a $200 fine. I believe I have also heard something about a similar deal in rest areas in VA?? I think this is going to be a new "wave" of nationwide laws soon...

Some of the trucks are also programmed to run a certain way based on mileage...if the truck doesn't average a certain mileage, it will not allow the driver to run the truck hard enough to drop it further...sucks in a way, but at least you are assured a certain MPG is maintained...better MPG equals less emissions.

If you notice, a lot of the OTR trucks now have a little diesel powered generator/environmental control on the passenger side, in front of the rear wheels...these are being used by companies to (GASP!) save money on fuel, with an added benefit of reduced emissions for us (they don't see that though!!)

Being I work on projects that involve EPA, I guess I don't see them as that bad...I see a lot more $$ wasted in other branches of Gov.

steved

I apologize if it seems I pirated your thread as a platform to push my own opinions on the forums, Jonas. To me the big picture is the problem and not the current market segment results. Therefore the rants about seemingly 'other problems' are actually point blank hits on the real problem you mentioned.

Yes, Steve, don't get me started on "...other branches of Gov.', ha hahaha!! EPA is needed and has done some great things, but unfortunately most of the mandates arising from there over the past 20 years have seriously stifled America in more ways than I can describe here! Just seems to me the benefits can't outweigh the expense when things get carried so far away. To me the bottom line is: has it worked and achieved the objective? Overall, no. Why? Because it addresses many problems while refusing to target many of the real causes of planetary pollutions.

[HWooldridge]

I have noticed a trend in the CTDs...

The 1st gens:

These are the mechanical 12 valve engines
Average mid 20s mpg, pretty much consistant across the board.
Almost completely mechanically controlled
Lowest HO/TQ rating (160 and 180HPs)
Most reliable of the CTDs
Very few issues (usually the body fell apart around the drivetrain)

The 2nd gens:

These are the 24 valve engines brought out in 1998.5.
Average around 20mpg (but they vary from the mid teens to the mid 20s)
Electronic controlled injection pump, electric LP, some sensors.
Mid HP ratings (215/235/250HP)
Pretty reliable.
However a failed LP will eventually kill the IP at a cost of $2k. Some sensors will cause you to sit also. Cracked exhaust manifolds are common.


The 3rd gens:

These are the new CRDs (2003+)
Average around 15mpg (but vary from single digits to 20+mpg)
Electronic everything...(the IP is a better design though, but the LP is still questionable)
Highest HP of the CTDs to date (305/325HP)
Questionable reliability
More issues (dropped valve guides, burnt pistons, dead LPs, dead CP3s, sensor nightmares, wiring issues, vibration issues, etc)


1st gen 6.7L CTD

2007+ CRDs...I won't even touch these because there isn't any significant info on them yet...



This is the trend I have seen. If I had not been pushed to buy a truck in the rush I did, I would have hunted up a 1st gen CTD (or kept my 2nd gen)...typically, as we "improve" on the old design, the less reliability we have...

steved

Very interesting and informative - thanks for sharing. My son has a '90 Dodge 3/4ton 4wd with Cummins and it is true about the engine and body. The driveline seems bullet proof but the doors will barely stay closed. Windows are cracked, electric accessories are shot, upholstery is gone, etc. I don't know what the diff ratios are but it won't go faster than 70 mph. However, it will pull a steel gooseneck full of hay and four horses at 70 and get about 17mpg while doing so.

I told him when he finally gets tired of pieces falling off to give it to me for a farm truck...

[MoparNorm]

I will only state the while guys are running pure B100, the 3rd gen's CRD 5.9L are only recommended for use with 5% bio (B5) and the 6.7L is only recommended for use with 20% (B20)...

I'm not sure what the 1st/2nd gen CTD are ok to run, but I do know that guys report seal issues (swelling) with bio diesel.

But as noted, guys run B100 without reports of much issue.

steved
I haven't read the posts following yours, so forgive me if this has been covered, however Dodge and Cummins do not recommend or cover under warranty usage above B20. What you may have confused in my post is P100, which is NOT bio but pure vegetable oil. The 2nd gen 1998 to 2002 trucks have a weak lift pump that is not recommended for use with P100, but the 1st and third gen Cummins works just fine with the P100 that can be anywhere from free to $1.50 a gallon. (I paid $2.65 a gallon today for petroleum diesel, cheapest in SoCal for nearly 8 months)
MN

[Gordon Maney]

I am a licensed diesel engineer and extensive operational/maintenance experience on many different engines in marine appplications. Those being anything from old Lake Union tug boat engines to the new large low speed MAN-BW main propulsion engines used shipboard today. Atlas, Enterprise, EMD, Nohab-Polar, Alco, Sultzer, MAN, BW, Cooper Vesmeer, Nordbreg, Fairbanks-Moorse, those are just the ones off the top of my head. For the last 30 years we have not even used diesel as the primary fuel, instead burning a less expensive residual fuel oil refered to as Bunker Fuel Oil.
I find it interesting that there are so many brands. Are some of them European, or are some old, American brands that are only used in marine applications?

I suspect that there are some very old diesel engines still in service. How old might some of them be?

[Mike Mc]

Oilfield work trucks.
At work we had 2 Dodge 2500. One gas 360, one diesel, both NV4500.
Now we got 3 ferd350. 2 diesel, one gas V8, two autos, one 6-speed.
We're always towing 8,000 oilfield trailers with tools and other stuff in the back.

This is my findings
1. The gas trucks will sit their and idle all day long with the A/c on just like a diesels with no problems.
2. pick-ups with sticks get about 5 mpg better than autos.
3. gas trucks don't wear out the right rear tire LoL.
4. " " handle and stop better.
5. " " cheaper to maintance, less wear.
6. " " 5-6K cheaper out the door.
7. " " you can sit beside some one or order food without shutting it off to hear.
8. " " don't wake up the "O" ladie when leave for work.
9. " " will pull the grade just as good if you let it rev.
10. Mannnn diesel trucks pull a lot better than gas trucks.
11. diesels don't need as much shifting.
12. " " vibrate you to sleep when you have standby time.
13. " " get stuck eisier than gas trucks.
14. " " don't get tugged around by the trailer as much and easier to keep it on the road.
15. " " fan is to noisy when reved up
16. This is the biggest bonus of the diesel. If the customer likes you .... fill up ..... diesel. If your in a gas truck, you just get a hand shake and a pat on the back.

Conclusion,
Just luv them diesels. So in town I take the gas truck and out on the highway I almost always take the diesel for it's low end towing and stability.
click to enlarge 5.9 weights 1,000lbs
http://f10.putfile.com/7/18212532233-thumb.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=2934486)
F350 gas with 3k pallet
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/26500264880.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3471544)

[Jonas Smith]

I do tow more than the average 1 ton diesel truck owner, but I'll admit that most of the miles on my 3500 are hauling around my lunch box. I am building a 35' gooseneck trailer so I can haul 2 power wagons to Iowa this year. It's pushing the max load that I feel comfortable with behind the 3500.
I wonder if I'd be better off to sell the 3500 and cut my losses, and buy one of the restored Mack B models with 673 Thermodyne and 5+4 transmissions for hauling my toys around on, and just get a small beater pickup for a parts runner/ power wagon buying rig (think power ram 50 size).

[MoparNorm]

Jonas,
Did you buy the Ram new? It sure seems like you had a lemon or poor dealer support. The water is over the spillway now so, to measure your options consider these points:
The cost of buying/selling the trucks to get the "fleet" organized.
Is that cost a net loss?
How much fuel could you buy for that cost?
What are the current monthly repair costs vs. fuel costs of the replacement vehicles?
I made the same cost analysis when I sold my ferd 7.3 (approx. $600 a month in repairs) and bought my Ram 3500 cab/chassis ($0 a month in repairs over 5 years excepting brakes and wiper blades)
Make yourself a spread sheet and the answer will become clear.
MN

[BobbyMike]

Thanks Jonas for starting this conversation, and thanks to everyone who contributed. I' never had reason to own a diesel before and don't know nothing 'bout 'em.
Almost too much information to digest, but it sounds like it would be a good thing to still plan on replacing the 230 in my M37 with a 4bt.

Interesting FYI for everyone. Rick (my wife's cousin and my former USMC buddy) and his wife have a diesel Suburban (they have 4 kids too). It's identical to our Suburban except for the engine. Rick bought the diesel (about a year before we bought ours) to save on fuel. He's recently decided to sell because the savings aren't as large anymore (and his oldest is also going into college next year which will negate the necessity of a sixth seat). They bought a Honda Fit which seats 5.

His advice to me was to keep the Suburban for when we need to drive everyone around (at least until my wife gets her Mercedes R Class) and buy a small fuel efficient 5 seater for all the rest of the time.

It's humorous take my wife's Suburban somewhere to pick up materials, because it's more economical to run than the M37.

Now a question. I know this has been covered to an extent in other posts, but I'd love to get estimates on what a diesel re-power could (not would) cost. I'm aware that, for example, Charles estimate would be higher than someone elses (like JimmieDs) because he's doing it as a business and needs to eat, pay his mechanics and buy his wife nice things.
I have people that will help me do the re-power, but if the cost difference isn't too much I'll probably save up the extra dough and have it done by someone else because of time (and lack of desire I must confess). I know a diesel repower in a truck that initially cost me less than $4000 might be questionable, but I bought this truck as a keeper, not a collectible or on a whim. I intend to pass this truck on to one of my kids, or even a grandkid.

[JimmieD]

The answer to that last question has a lot of qualifiers based on circumstances. IF a person decides to 'Do it myself' and then ends up farming out bunches of stuff it can really add up. IF a person is a skilled welder and fabricator and has the equipment and understands a little more than the basics of automotive mechanical engineering and has access to materials and parts it will cost much less.

I had good fortune in many cases and recovered the cost of the stepvan by selling the hull plus sold some other parts. I happened to already have a pile of steel [all used, but good USA stuff] and lots of misc. truck stuff laying around. I already had the Millermatic wire welder, acetylene sets and misc. metal working tools, plus compressor and air tools. I got a lot of good breaks finding stuff. VERY IMPORTANT: mines a DRIVER rig that will get abused for years so no frills and not a lot of worry about looks. Based on that scenario if absolutely everything clicked [highly unlikely] and with those prerequisites you could possibly do it for around $5,500 to $6,000. BUT: mine is 2WD which is much less complicated than matching vintage 4X stuff.

That doesn't include some very necessary items like serious brake upgrade, plus maybe an exhaust brake, possibly water/meth injection for cooler EGT's while towing and many other drivetrain and genral upgrade$. More likely $9,000-$10,000 for a nice rig.

Charles does something entirely different. He returns your truck to you in better condition than new by a long shot! It is professionally done with a much higher level of fit and finish and is more throughly and correctly engineered. I've done stuff on mine that only some miles on the road will prove right or wrong: Charles already ran those laps! There is simply no comparison between my backyard cut, grind, pound weld-it job and the top quality expertise offered by Charlles. Looking at today's prices on inferior diesel 4X4 rigs the price of a Charles Talbert turnaround on an M-37 is more like a steal!

[JimmieD]

Matter of fact looking at one of Charles' jobs pretty well answers the question, "Why buy a diesel?" I'd rather have 1 of Charles' restos than half a dozen new diesels or 2 dozen new gassers......

[Kevin Mienke]

Bobby Mike,
You stated that you want to pass this truck along to future generations. I plan to make my truck a family heirloom as well. This made my decision to have Charles do the job a no brainer. I will take on a second job to make it happen and will have to be patient due to budget issues, but I think his pricing is within reason for a professional installation.
This is, however, an abandonment of the way I was raised. If you want a job done right, do it yourself. That was the attitude in my dad's home when I was growing up. He was born the son of a farmer, whom are renown for being jacks of all trades. It was their way of life. If a building needed constructed, the family all got together and constructed a building. If the car broke down, they got out their tools and fixed the car. If they didn't have the right tool to fix the car, they made a tool. Nothing was ever hired out and I respect that. I appreciate the way in which I was raised and enjoy the total satisfaction of doing a job myself, but the world is a different place than it was when I was a kid and a much different place than when my dad was a kid. My point is, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to remain 100% self sufficient. My attitude when it comes to the diesel repower of my truck is that I will ultimately have a much nicer truck if I hire the professional, not to mention I am supporting the structure of today's economy. Up to this point, we have done all the work on Fenway ourselves(meaning me, my dad and my son)but bodywork and gas engines are within my skill set and I knew we could achieve the desired results. I'm not comfortable with trying to tackle an entire diesel repower, and it sounds like you are balking at the idea yourself. Wow, I'm sorry to have rambled. Think it through. Talk to Charles and talk to your friends.
Concerning cost, consider what you're getting for the money. Charles is installing brand new engines. There is a degree of risk vs. benefit that needs to be considered when trying to save $

[JimmieD]

Agreeing with Kevin, I put countless hours into fabricating steel frame mounts and also steel motor mounts to hold the Cummins 4BT where it needs to be. I spent many more hours on the NV4500 trans rear cross member. Well, I find that my right side engine mount inexplicably has a rib in precisely the wrong place so that I cannot connect a water sensor without pulling mount, cutting off rib and grinding, relocating rib and resintalling. That means hoisting up the engine again and beating up stuff that was all nice and shiny new and spending even more hours on one simple [??] part cutting, grinding, welding, etc. Also I have no idea if the 440 engine mount isolators will be enough to carry the load and also properly insulate against vibration [that 4BT's are famous for!]. I'll find out if it was a colossal waste of time when I finally drive it.

On the trans crossmember I fabbed it with all the precision I could muster. It doesn't use original NV mounts, but rather some 360 motor mounts. I measured, measured again, mocked up, measured again, cut and trimmed, re-fitted and measured again, and finally drilled as needed and bolted in place. Now I just can't imagine why that one motor mount on one side of trans crossmember is cocked slightly sideways!??? What's up with that!!!? So, take it apart and re-do a bunch of stuff, again with it all brand shiny new stuff getting trashed in the process. Also I have absolutely no idea as to whether the engine mounts will properly isolate vibration and secure tailshaft. Guess I'll find out.

It will work, and it will get done somehow, but I'm beyond physically and mentally worn out and lost my sense of humor weeks ago. It's supposed to be fun, right? Ya gotta tally in the enormous aggravation factor and the drain on your personal natural resources: it will take all you have, believe me.

If you had the 3 lbs. sledge single jack poised in the air, and your thumb sitting there on the anvil, how much cash is it worth right now to not let that hammer fall and use somebody else's thumb instead? Something to think about....

[Kevin Mienke]

Jimmie,
I like that last line. Still chuckling.
Bobby Mike,
I don't mean to discourage getting quotes or doing the job yourself. I respect Jimmies approach to his project and admire his "stick with it" attitude. There are many qualified mechanics with an attention for detail that are capable of handling the job. It just seems to me that Charles dedication to the M-37 rebuild is proven and the risks are minimized to nil with a brand new power plant and ample aptitude on installation.

[BobbyMike]

I appreciate both views. Many people "do" woodworking. The people who hire me to make furniture for them "do" other things (and make lots of money). I'm sure many of them could, with enough time and money, make a nice bench. They would also get a lot of satisfaction from doing it. They decide to buy one from me because it's what I do and I do it well. There's nothing wrong with admitting someone else can do something better than you can. I have concluded awhile ago that while I can "do" mechanical things, it's not my favorite thing. If I can't find someone who can help me (and someone who "does" mechanical stuff as well as I can "do" woodworking) than having someone like Charles do it would be a no-brainer. My problem is deciding what I want to do. DIY or hire out. I'm leaning towards the latter (the write-up of the Timkin truck was helpful in that regard).
I also have a shop to build and a house to renovate, which I don't want to hire out because I'm too picky about stuff I know how to do.

[CGarbee]

Hmmmm,
The Cummins instal in my M37 was around $7K... I say "around" because there are couple of small parts that I didn't bother to document the cost on (like the scrap metal that I used to fabricate the motor mounts from), and some things that I would have done reqardless of converting to diesel (such as the electric wipers...). I can knock the price down if I were to do it all over again since I have much better connections for obtaining some of the higher cost items (transmission/flywheel adapter) and since I have "been there, done that"...

I did get Charles to set up my 4.49 gears and lockers, but the rest of the conversion was done in my own back yard using a "previously enjoyed" engine and transmission...

Before you convert a truck (or buy a new one), you really need to think long and hard about how you will use your rig...

[Sickcall]

The price on the 4bt's keeps going up. In the last transportation auction the only P30 van on the west coast went for $2750. These previously enjoyed engines are going to get harder to find at a reasonable price. I hope next months auction is better.

[Jonas Smith]

I'm talking about buying a fill size rig, with a full size diesel, not the 4bt conversions. I dont think anyone would put a 34' gooseneck with 2 power wagons loaded up on the back of a M37 with a 4BT installed, and drive it to Iowa from Washington state.

Since we are talking about it, what is the cost of Charles's standard 4bt repower for a M37?

Jonas

[BobbyMike]

Thanks Cabell, for the estimate and the advice.

I use my truck for work. I want to get a little more "umph", with a little less $ per mile. Currently "Old Yeller" is running fine and gets me where I need to go, sometimes more slowly than I want (I do live in the mountains). The truck is not set up for towing, nor do I intend to fit it for towing in the future. I use it to haul gravel, firewood, manure, get to jobsites, and tool around back country dirt roads. I'd like to drive out to Iowa, one of these Junes.

I doubt "Old Yeller" ever be a Fenway, as I use it pretty rough sometimes, but I would like to upgrade the mechanicals and electrical system. I can see another 40 years of use in the truck if I treat it right.

[BobbyMike]

I'm talking about buying a fill size rig, with a full size diesel, not the 4bt conversions. I dont think anyone would put a 34' gooseneck with 2 power wagons loaded up on the back of a M37 with a 4BT installed, and drive it to Iowa from Washington state.

Since we are talking about it, what is the cost of Charles's standard 4bt repower for a M37?

Jonas

Sorry about the Hijack, Jonas. If you'd like I'll start another thread (sheepish grin).

[Sickcall]

Jonas your thread did get hi-jacked very early on. I appologize for continuing the tangent. You asked about economics and you got the die-hard testimonials of the benefits of owning a diesel. Norn gave a good post on the spreadsheet approach of whether or not it is economical for you. You being the key. If, like Norm, it has 20,000#'s behind it, then its more economical than a gas engine. If its a grocery getter that drops the kids off at school then someone is just fooling themselves. I would guesstamate that 75% of all driving done in a medium size diesel truck is in the non economical performance range. Just my local observations. Don't calculate the resale valve into the economic equation if you have to keep your truck for the long haul as some have stated, flawed voodoo economics.

You mentioned earlier on that you thought a Ram 50 may be more appropiate. I wouldn't touch one of those, for any reason, as they are probably going to frustrate you more with repairs than the truck you presently own. A good lunch box truck would be an early 90's Toyota with a FI 22re engine. The Toyota is the best most reliable small truck built and it would serve you well for hundreds of thousands of miles. But then again you would need to figure this into the spreadsheet also. Hey now, isn't the Toyota truck built in America?

[CGarbee]

The price on the 4bt's keeps going up. In the last transportation auction the only P30 van on the west coast went for $2750. These previously enjoyed engines are going to get harder to find at a reasonable price. I hope next months auction is better.

Whoops... 4.89 gears.... Bad day at the keyboard... Thanks for catching that one...

I know that the P30 vans on Dovebid have been going up, but then, I helped a buddy load one a few weeks back that he got for $750. It was missing the driveshaft and the transmissin was slipping, but the body and engine were in great shape. Figure that he will make a little money on the deal by the time he ships the aluminum body and the steel frame to the scrap yard and parts out the axles, radiator, and other parts that he does not need or want...

There are still a lot of these engines running around in bread trucks (not to mention other uses), so you can always wait for the next sale...

[Gordon Maney]

Whoops... 4.89 gears.... Bad day at the keyboard... Thanks for catching that one...

I know that the P30 vans on Dovebid have been going up, but then, I helped a buddy load one a few weeks back that he got for $750. It was missing the driveshaft and the transmissin was slipping, but the body and engine were in great shape. Figure that he will make a little money on the deal by the time he ships the aluminum body and the steel frame to the scrap yard and parts out the axles, radiator, and other parts that he does not need or want...

There are still a lot of these engines running around in bread trucks (not to mention other uses), so you can always wait for the next sale...

What engines are used in Fed-Ex and UPS trucks?

[CGarbee]

Depends on the truck size... The smallest of the UPS trucks are running 4.3L gas or Cummins 6AT3.4, the medium sized UPS/FedEx trucks are running 4BT/BTA or ISB3.9 and the larger ones are running 6BT/BTA or ISB5.9 depending on age.

You do have to check though when looking at them since in some areas of the country, they are using GM6.x engines which were fitted in some of the route vans before GM sold their chasis plant to Frieghtliner.

For that matter, some of the IBC trucks getting sold off by Dovebid still have the Hercules DT3.7 engine that was utilized in the MARS conversions that Paul Caudil marketed.

[MoparNorm]

.... If its a grocery getter that drops the kids off at school then someone is just fooling themselves. I would guesstamate that 75% of all driving done in a medium size diesel truck is in the non economical performance range...

http://photos.imageevent.com/moparnorm/jeeps/websize/engine_650.jpg

One thing to consider is the new generation of small diesels. The "grocery getter" Jeep Liberty with the 2.8 Detroit Diesel gets over 30 mpg, the same vehicle with the 3.6 V-6 gets 24 mpg. Both are highway mileage, your mileage will vary.
The Jeep Grand Cherokee is being offered with a 3.0 Merc. diesel that is rated at 35 mpg. There are a bunch of small, quiet, economical, fuel efficient diesels coming down the pipeline. Because of the ULSD fiasco, they won't really explode onto the Mopar scene until 2008, but given just about any scenario I'd take the diesel motor over the gas motor for fuel economy, low end torque and longevity.
MN

[Sickcall]

Norm, Jonas does not drive one of those. He asked us not to hijack his thread so I was answering his question concerning his current Dodge 3500. But yeh, its nice and economical......

[MoparNorm]

Well, he noted that his question was about the 3500, but in the same post he asked about the 4bt...ha!ha! I was simply pointing out that diesels will soon be available throughout the engine spectrum with fuel savings and more torque across the board.
I'm still convinced that Jonas was the sad recipient of a lemon and that his experience is atypical of the majority of diesel users. He shouldn't cast judgement with only that experience. If I judged all diesels by my first bad experience, a pathetic 7.3 ferd, then I would have never known the beauty of the Cummins.
Besides, as long as he is eating my steaks I'm going to talk about whatever I want...ha!ha!
http://photos.imageevent.com/moparnorm/hollister2004/websize/DCP_1095.JPG
MN

[Sickcall]

Norm, I would like to buy one of those diesels when they finally make it here, but until then I will make do with my present mode of transportation. I haven't figured out it's trade in value yet.......

[JimmieD]

That thing got a ...... never mind

[MoparNorm]

Ha!Ha!
MN

[IHWillys]

...For that matter, some of the IBC trucks getting sold off by Dovebid still have the Hercules DT3.7 engine that was utilized in the MARS conversions that Paul Caudil marketed.

Yes, I have two of the Hercules sitting in my garage now. They both have Warner T19s behind them so they are ripe for a swap into anything 2WD or with divorced transfercase.

And Charles, I'm going to call, I just hadn't seen your reply until now.

Ken