Building material quality and grades

[Gordon Maney]

Many years ago I got all of my material at a lumber yard. They sold nails in bulk — stored in wooden bins — that you put in a big basket hanging from a large-faced scale. After weighing, you put them in a paper sack, or double bagged them in two paper sacks. You could also ask the guy behind the counter for a recommendation for a fastener type, size, and spacing, and he would have immediate, confident replies that were obviously based in experience.

The lumber seemed better, the grades seemed better, there was a lot of doug fir, as they called Douglas fir, and the plywood seemed better — more plies than now — and available in better grades with no voids. Plugged and sanded, but no voids.

When I pulled my Power Wagon into the yard there was a guy who knew what he was doing who sorted the lumber for me, giving me only the good stuff. The crooked stuff got made into form stakes and cribbing under loads of good stuff. They used a monster, probably 16 inch, DeWalt radial arm saw that made your blood curdle when it revved up. Very often this saw was used to rip stock down to a width that you wanted. The wood literally flew through that thing. I am not scared of many things, but ripping in a radial arm saw is one that does make me nervous. Those guys could have done it in their sleep.

Now, I go to the local giant building materials store. Here they call them Menard’s, though there is now a Home Depot. Elsewhere there are stores called Lowe’s. The workers are all pimple faced, indifferent, lazy kids.

The wood species is white and light. The plywood sheets look like giant potato chips [won’t lie flat] made of fewer plies than yesteryear. Lots of voids, too. The dimension lumber, particularly in 2x4 stock, looks like airplane propellers or rockers from a chair. Unband a bundle of 2x stock and let it dry for a while and it fairly springs apart. I have gone through entire bundles, only to find 20% of the wood useable for what I needed.

There are still some small lumber yards. I believe I need to investigate them. I have not purchased dimension lumber and ply in quantity for nearly 30 years. I guess that dates me.

A question for those who are buying a lot of material.... What are you seeing as differences in vendors of materials? How do you evaluate a potential source of building materials? Are there still good grades of plywood available, with more and better plies? Are you able to find good, straight, relatively clear dimension lumber? There are too many pieces that have bark, huge knots, and geometry that is other than straight.

What do you look for when you go into a place where you have not been before?

Discuss....

[cpstover]

A few years ago a Home Depot opened right next door to the local mainstay of Brock's. Everyone around thought Brock's was done for....well no. Brock's buisness improved....Why ? Good wood. I here alot of the pro's say Brock's for the lumber and Home Depot for bulk insulation or fastener purchases...Nevermind kitchens, I hade a timberframe house built over the spring and summer of '04...wanted real wood cabinets so we tried "The Depot" was told thats "high end" and "custom" equals $$$$$....ok. Went to Brock's...real wood line standard...price 25% less than the depot, and a person to work with no "special" charge.

Also at Brock's you go inside order your lumber, pay, and then drive your truck into the lumber yard and there is probably half a dozen guys who know where the stock is help you load and run one of those huge rip saws. So long live the local yard.

[JimmieD]

This may not seem to directly apply, but it is part of the quandry:

Some back room legislator deals [read graft and corruption and kickbacks] were cut with certain Japanese entities regarding California lumber harvesting. From memory, the lumber companies now cut the roads into the forest, cut the timber, skid it out, and there it is loaded on trucks to be taken to harbor. It is then loaded as-cut onto Japanese boats where these carry it offshore into international waters and there it is barked, cut dimensionally, and shipped direct to Japan or other parts of the orient.

This cuts out the American timber workers and mills that would normally do this lumber work of course. The buyer can specify the most premium growths and select trees, and pays nothing for the access roads, skidding etc. At the time I heard of it, which was myabe 10-15 years ago, the Japanese were paying about the price of a Big Mac Meal for each tree!!! Subsidies covered expenses to the American lumber companies doing the harvesting, and America was robbed in many quarters for prime lumber, lumber mill work, etc. etc. etc. and most of the mills are now shut down with thousands unemployed.

The backwash is still seen in lower quality lumber being offered in America because many of the premiere lumber mills had to shut down and even the supply network was negatively effected. In addition the premium old growth timber is shipped offshore, and the scrap and slash is left for America's needs. I have further comment, but in respect of decency I will forgo.

JimmieD

[Ron in Indiana]

Gordon, we have all three of the box stores in our area and mulitples of each not unlike years ago when gas stations popped up on each corner of an intersection. Normally this is good for the consumer but the boxes sell all the same things which when it comes to lumber it's as you say white wood and very poor quality. I only go to the boxes when I have to pick up something I forgot at my regular yard. The yard I work with has been in business since 1921 and was like the lumber yard you remember. They have since built a larger store to offer more products in an effort to compete with the Menards 2 miles down the road. This store is an member of the Do-it-Best Corp which is the old HWI . My local yard carries #1 yellow pine for structural and Spruce Fir for their white framing lumber. We use OSB for structural sheathing but they do offer CDX plywood. When I do go out of my usual work area I look for the smaller lumber yards for material but may end up at a box store because the smaller operations have closed up. The smaller yards usually have more experienced help that have been with them for years but this to is a dying tradition. The main things the smaller yards have to compete with the boxes are service and quality of their products. It takes the educated consumer to realise this and to support them or they will fade away if price is the only concern. Yes it may cost more but it's the same with most everything else, price, quality or speed- pick two. The smaller yards know what they are up against and are doing what they can to compete but they can only do it if the sales support them, not unlike the current Wally World conflict with the small retailer. Of the box stores around here, NE Indiana, Menards does have more personel on the floor than Depot or Slowe's, that will help you find what you are looking for plus seem to have more training. The main thing is to shop, compare and ask questions, what grade lumber do they carry? What is their return policy/ Do they deliver with their own trucks as opposed to subcontractors? There are different grades of material but if people don't check they will end up buying a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.

[BobbyMike]

Rarely buy lumber from Home Depot, unless it's something our local lumberyard doesn't carry. We have some smaller sawmills that I get "nicer" wood from for cabinetry.
Anybody else notice the growing trend for yards to be carrying wood from Europe? I've seen 2x material from Austria, Germany, Czech Rep., among others. Used to be that "foriegn" wood was from Canada.

By all means check out your local sawmills, Gordon. Nothing better than supporting the little guy in a big, usually indifferent world.

My finger is still sore and swollen.

[Ugg013]

Guys:

My buying experiences have been considerabley less since my, ah, incident, but I have noticed poorer quality woods being offered at the Menard's of the world. BTW, Home Depot is owned by Sears. Some time back, I noticed that things I bought at Menard's, even brand named items, just didn't seem to last. I'm wondering if they get 2nds and sell to us?

The help in these type stores is almost all the same. Confident, pimpled, young, and now, non English speaking. You do have some former trades people, but they're always swamped. You almost always get wrong info, even from the so-called specialists. When I need something, I'm pretty much on my own, and God forbid if I ask for help moving something.

In defense of these people, they are usually under paid, if they get paid at all. Home Depot/Sears has been shafting their people since the begining. I guess it's a sign of the times. I do try and patronize the smaller yards, hardware stores, ect, but these days, cost is a very big issue, and the saying "Ya get what ya pay for." is not always true. I've shelled out big bucks for the so-called BETTER item, only to find out it was junk too.

My wife works at Wal-Mart as a 2nd job. What they do to her is IMO, outrageous. I wouldn't put up with it for a minute. Then again, they wouldn't hire me either, I tried. HA! The smaller yards that used to abound in this area are now mostly gone, leaving the SUPER box stores as you call em. There's 3 within 10 minutes of me, and if I want to drive another 10, there's 4 more.

I've been lucky when making purchases of lumber. I've been able to find deals in bulk, of quality materials. Proof is, that I still have a great quantity of it after many years of sitting. Finding a good 2x4 these days is equal to locating the Holy Grail. I usually find straighter egg noodles. Ya know, like Jimmie mentioned about what's going on off the coast and all, maybe we should have another revolution and take all the politicians, line em up and shoot em in the butt with rocksalt. Then make em soak in water. Naw, they'd probably like it.

Later
Ugg

[Clint Dixon]

When I want 8' long material, whether it be 1x4, 2x4, 1x12, pine, fir, or cedar, I always purchase 16' lengths and cut them down. The quality is much better in the longer lengths. The price of one 16' 2x4 is even less than two 8' 2x4s, in most instances. I try to plan all of my projects so I can purchase the longest material possible, usually 12'-16', and plan my cuts ahead of time so it all gets used somewhere.

If I am building a deck or something like that that will not be covered over, I shop at the smaller yards for top of the line material. The prices at those smaller places around here are much higher and the selection can be low. Otherwise, I go to Menards for lumber. Home Depot and Lowes around here do not carry much of a selection in lumber, or the sizes or species that I want. I have found that the highest priced lumber at Menards is not always the best. And, just because a particular grade was great the last trip does not mean it will be the best choice this trip. I always go out to the yard to check first.

I have found the workers at our Menards, though young and inexperienced, will admit if they do not know an answer, and will search out someone who does know. The checkouts are always manned, and when the traffic is low the cashiers stand out in the main aisle and wait to direct customers to the empty checkouts. One of their competitors operates less efficiently. There, I have never seen more than 3 checkouts open at any one time, even on the busiest days, with several people waiting in line.

Junior

[bosco]

We have both the Home Depot and Lowes in my area. I have purchased lumber at both places, but only in limited quantities. When it comes to small stock like 2x4 studs ... well it's like you say Gordon, you really gotta dig to find the goods ones. I've even had to search through 4x6 treated post to fine usable ones. Fortunately, we have some very good lumber yards that carry more quality stock and they will also load it for you.

Before I go to a place I have not been before (now I am talking about a quality yard), I call first ... let them know what my needs are ... get the name of the person I'm talking to so that I can meet with this same person when I visit their yard. They want my business and are very receptive to customer needs. One yard, that I now do business with, the owner gave me a personal tour of their facilities ... introducing me to several of the folks that work for him.

I really do not like going to the larger chains, because mostly of the long lines at the resigter. Why they don't open them all up is beyond me (same issue with grocery stores). Another reason is because you can hardly find anyone to help you and when you do most of the time they aren't really any help at all. Now if you need something off the top rack ... they may only have 1 or 2 forktruck operators and you have to wait forever.

I perfer the quality yard over the larger chains, because I know that I will get good material, the best service and no long lines. If it cost a bit more, it's still worth it.

[Hoody]

As a employee of a local, independent lumber yard, I would say go to the smaller yard. As Bosco mentioned above, call them first, give them a list, or at least, let them know what you are looking for, get the employee's name, and go see them. I am sure they will be able to answer most, if not all of your questions you may have, and may even have the material pulled and waiting for you when you get there. Or, they will probably deliver it to you, in most cases free, and take back anything that you may have concerns with, and bring you a replacement. Usually, they will have a better grade of material ( more plys to the plywood, #1 grade lumber or better, etc. ) and not much more in cost. Quality does have a bit a of a price, but it usually includes other benefits (free delivery, letting you pick your material out of the racks, not just what's on top, experience, and hands-on knowledge.). We advertise our employees and our experience as one of our biggest advantages, and it works. 12 employees...and 165 years of cumulative experience. That means something. No, we may not sell Halloween candy, Christmas trees, or school supplies, but if you have a building project, we will have it, or get it.

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Hoody
No, we may not sell Halloween candy, Christmas trees, or school supplies, but if you have a building project, we will have it, or get it.

...isn't that the truth? Menard's sells almost anything. Next they will be selling groceries.

[MoparNorm]

...I missed this thread the first time around...ha!ha!
Ugg, I'm pretty sure that Home Depot is a stand alone company, Sears owned Builders Square.

Jim, most of that Japanese "offshore ply" comes back here to be sold. It's a decades old story and I have no way of knowing if they still do that or not, an awful lot of lumber is going to china these days.

The "big box hardware retailers" do not hold a candle to the local yards and mills. They are geared towards the homeowner and true craftsmen avoid them like the plague, except as a last resort source on a weekend (and they are **** to shop in on "Homeowners Day" which is any Saturday or Sunday)

Most of the lumber at the big boxes is not even legal for use in buildings in CA. and any state in the Siesmic Zone 4. The stamp on the lumber is bogus, reading "Construction" or "Best" or some such generic term that is not even legal for use or recognized by the Uniform Building Code (UBC) or codes in certain parts of the nation.

We discussed this earlier that stamps must be "Select Structural", "Structural No.1" or "Structural No.2" there must also be an accompanying stamp that states the stamp authority, such as WCLB which is "West Coast Lumber Board" or other stamps of agencies or testing labs that are recognized by the UBC, or the International Conference of Building Officials (ICBO). They are; AHA, AITC, APA, AWPA, AWPB, and others with too many initials to decipher here, but I will upon request.

Certain parts or regions of the country have different governing bodies, but the bottom line is that the stamped lumber at Home Depot and Lowe's is fine for patios, dog houses and camp fires, but NOT for building in many areas of the country. If it seems weak it's because it is.

Lumber at yards and especially plywood (not chip board) is still as good as ever, when it is legitimate 5 ply with the proper stamp, the ply at Depot and Lowe's is for train layouts and dart boards, NOT for building.

Go to any Depot or Lowe's and you will find "Day Laborers" (ie: illegals) and homeowners all aimlessly looking for a "bargain" of cheap, foriegn made junk, including the wood. Do yourself a favor, visit your local mill or yard and develop a relationship with the counterperson and you'll get a square deal, good advice and good quality lumber at a fair price, it's where the REAL Pro's go!
MN

http://photos.imageevent.com/moparnorm/dixonautoshop/websize/DCP_0593.JPG

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by MoparNorm
...I missed this thread the first time around...ha!ha!
Ugg, I'm pretty sure that Home Depot is a stand alone company, Sears owned Builders Square.
Jim, most of that Japanese "offshore ply" comes back here to be sold. It's a decades old story and I have no way of knowing if they still do that or not, an awful lot of lumber is going to china these days.
The "big box hardware retailers" do not hold a candle to the local yards and mills. They are geared towards the homeowner and true craftsmen avoid them like the plague, except as a last resort source on a weekend (and they are **** to shop in on "Homeowners Day" which is any Saturday or Sunday)
Most of the lumber at the big boxes is not even legal for use in buildings in CA. and any state in the Siesmic Zone 4. The stamp on the lumber is bogus, reading "Construction" or "Best" or some such generic term that is not even legal for use or recognized by the Uniform Building Code (UBC) or codes in certain parts of the nation. We discussed this earlier that stamps must be "Select Strutural", "Structural No.1" or "Structural No.2" there must also be an accompanying stamp that states the stamp authority, such as WCLB which is "West Coast Lumber Board" or other stamps of agencies or testing labs that are recognized by the UBC, or the International Conference of Building Officials (ICBO). They are; AHA, AITC, APA, AWPA, AWPB, and others with too many initials to decipher here, but I will upon request. Certain parts or regions of the country have different governing bodies, but the bottom line is that the stamped lumber at Home Depot and Lowe's is fine for patios, dog houses and camp fires, but NOT for building in many areas of the country. If it seems weak it's because it is. Lumber at yards and especially plywood (not chip board) is still as good as ever, when it is legitimate 5 ply with the proper stamp, the ply at Depot and Lowe's is for train layouts and dart boards, NOT for building.
Go to any Depot or Lowe's and you will find "Day Laborers" (ie: illegals) and homeowners all aimlessly looking for a "bargain" of cheap, foriegn made junk, including the wood. Do yourself a favor, visit your local mill or yard and develop a relationship with the counterperson and you'll get a square deal, good advice and good quality lumber at a fair price, it's where the REAL Pro's go!
MN

http://photos.imageevent.com/moparnorm/dixonautoshop/websize/DCP_0593.JPG

Come on, Norm, you can't bait us like that. You have to tell us about this picture. What is the boxy feature on the left?

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by MoparNorm
We discussed this earlier that stamps must be "Select Structural", "Structural No.1" or "Structural No.2" there must also be an accompanying stamp that states the stamp authority, such as WCLB which is "West Coast Lumber Board" or other stamps of agencies or testing labs that are recognized by the UBC, or the International Conference of Building Officials (ICBO). They are; AHA, AITC, APA, AWPA, AWPB, and others with too many initials to decipher here, but I will upon request.

We discussed this earlier? When?

I'll bite. Please decipher. This is good stuff. I would have been very sad to think that all lumber and material grading systems had sunken to the level of what is termed here as the box store class of merchandise.

[Ugg013]

Norm:

Not the one by me, but that may be just the one. I remember a ways back that the founder of the Depot's goal was to put Builders Square out of business because they fired him or somethin????

Gordon:

That's where MoPar Tina puts Norm when he's naughty. ;>)

Later
Ugg

[MoparNorm]

Originally posted by Gordon Maney
We discussed this earlier? When?


Well , it may be the oldtimers, but I thought we had dicussed grades earlier in another thread about lumber grades? It could have been on Joes' but I thought it was here. I'll have to search in the morning and find it...= )
And yes, you're correct, these grades are just pretend grades out here, they MAY be OK in Georga at the Depot's HQ, but not here in SoCal. You'll waste a lot of time, labor and material framing with that lumber here, the inspector will make you tear it down.
MN

[Clint Dixon]

Originally posted by MoparNorm
these grades are just pretend grades out here, they MAY be OK in Georga at the Depot's HQ, but not here in SoCalMN

I have no desire to move any closer to either coast than I already am. Too scared to leave the midwest. There are still areas around here where farmers are not required to get building permits.

Junior

[Hoody]

Yep...my entire county (Mercer)! And only one of those cities acually has a permit, and it isn't inspected. They just want the income for the permit. I design everything to meet UBC code, but whether or not it ends up built that way...who knows.

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Clint Dixon
I have no desire to move any closer to either coast than I already am. Too scared to leave the midwest. There are still areas around here where farmers are not required to get building permits.

Junior

No permit required where I live. If I want an entrance across a ditch, the county has to do that, but they do it for free.

In Cedar Rapids it is a much different story, and in certain other counties.

[Hoody]

Originally posted by Gordon Maney
No permit required where I live. If I want an entrance across a ditch, the county has to do that, but they do it for free.

In Cedar Rapids it is a much different story, and in certain other counties.

Same here. Clint Dixon lives 10-15 west of me, but he is in Rock Island county, which is a WHOLE lot more stringent than my county. Rock Island county is primarily urban (Moline, Rock Island, rest of Illinois side of the Quad Cities), and has a very strict building code in the county, and all individual cities. The next county south is Mercer, is almost entirely agricultural, and the largest town is about 3,000 people. The entire county may only have 15,000 people in it, and there is no code what-so-ever. As a designer, my first question to customers is, "where is this project going to be built ?", just so I can know which building code I need to design for.

[Clint Dixon]

Originally posted by Hoody
Same here. Clint Dixon lives 10-15 west of me, but he is in Rock Island county, which is a WHOLE lot more stringent than my county. Rock Island county is primarily urban (Moline, Rock Island, rest of Illinois side of the Quad Cities), and has a very strict building code in the county, and all individual cities. The next county south is Mercer, is almost entirely agricultural, and the largest town is about 3,000 people. The entire county may only have 15,000 people in it, and there is no code what-so-ever. As a designer, my first question to customers is, "where is this project going to be built ?", just so I can know which building code I need to design for.

Just so people don't get the wrong idea and start to think I am a "city slicker", I do live in a primarily urban county, however, this county does have a lot of farm acreage within "city" limits. And, I reside at the southern most end of the county, only a mile from the Mercer county line, and a mile from the nearest town of 600 people. I do see cornfields when I look out my windows. Now Hoody, he is a little farther out in the sticks. You're what, about 2 miles from the nearest town of 500-800 people?

I don't think the county building inspector even knows the road that I live on exists. The last project that I called him on, a 200 sq. ft. gambrel dormer addition to my modified A-frame house, he didn't even inspect anything. He just said, "Yep, it looks like you know what you are doing." Then he left, and the county was X number of dollars richer. Darned right I know what I am doing. I have to live here. I make sure this place is not going to fall down around me.

I just wanted to clear up all of that urban/dpcd myth, lest someone gets the wrong impression of me. ;^)

[Hoody]

Not trying to start any bad rumors about you. :0)

[Clint Dixon]

Originally posted by Hoody
Not trying to start any bad rumors about you. :0)

That's mighty neighborly of you. ;^)

Junior

[Clint Dixon]

Originally posted by Hoody
I design everything to meet UBC code, but whether or not it ends up built that way...who knows.

Hoody has my dream job. I enjoy carpentry more than most anything, but I went back to school so I could get into the design side of the building trades. So, wouldn't you know it, I end up as a Mechanical Designer instead. But I am designing the precision equipment that will assemble the earthquake proof wall systems that will save countless losses to life and property in California.

Junior

[bosco]

Originally posted by Gordon
Come on, Norm, you can't bait us like that. You have to tell us about this picture. What is the boxy feature on the left?
I was thinking the same thing too when I saw that picture Gordon.

Speaking of permits. I called the engineering department of the county I live in regarding the permits and other paperwork needed for my workshop. I was told a form needed to be filed with the county stating the building size, cost, construction material and what it's intended use was to be. If I remember correctly to file the form it would cost 50 bucks (so, I guess this is a permit). The only other form (permit) I needed was for the culverts I intend to put in the county ditch for access to my property. This one will cost me 150 bucks (go figure), and I have to buy the culverts ... but the county is so nice that they will install them for free (yeah right). Oh, I should also mention that I do not live in the city of Houston ... I am several miles south in a rural area. The city of Houston is very strict with it's codes and I wouldn't even want to guess the permits required to build something in that town.

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by bosco
I was thinking the same thing too when I saw that picture Gordon.

Speaking of permits. I called the engineering department of the county I live in regarding the permits and other paperwork needed for my workshop. I was told a form needed to be filed with the county stating the building size, cost, construction material and what it's intended use was to be. If I remember correctly to file the form it would cost 50 bucks (so, I guess this is a permit). The only other form (permit) I needed was for the culverts I intend to put in the county ditch for access to my property. This one will cost me 150 bucks (go figure), and I have to buy the culverts ... but the county is so nice that they will install them for free (yeah right). Oh, I should also mention that I do not live in the city of Houston ... I am several miles south in a rural area. The city of Houston is very strict with it's codes and I wouldn't even want to guess the permits required to build something in that town.

How long will it be before Houston arrives at your gate?

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Clint Dixon
Just so people don't get the wrong idea and start to think I am a "city slicker", I do live in a primarily urban county....

Clint can be so deceptive at times. He plays the role of a good old boy, but that is really not Clint. He lives in an upscale, highrise building in a wealthy, urban business district. The value of the jewelry he wears on any given day far exceeds my net worth.

His driver picks him up in one of his several automobiles, most often a 7-series BMW, taking him downtown to evaluate and consider his next, wise investment move. Clint does not have to work, though he serves on the board of directors for a half dozen large corporations in Western Illinois.

Occasional business trips take him out of town in his private jet. It is a big change for Clint to put on his special, country clothes and come to the Iowa rally. He says it helps keep him real.

[Clint Dixon]

Originally posted by Gordon Maney
Clint can be so deceptive at times. He plays the role of a good old boy, but that is really not Clint. He lives in an upscale, highrise building in a wealthy, urban business district. The value of the jewelry he wears on any given day far exceeds my net worth.

His driver picks him up in one of his several automobiles, most often a 7-series BMW, taking him downtown to evaluate and consider his next, wise investment move. Clint does not have to work, though he serves on the board of directors for a half dozen large corporations in Western Illinois.

Occasional business trips take him out of town in his private jet. It is a big change for Clint to put on his special, country clothes and come to the Iowa rally. He says it helps keep him real.

Well....Martie does, on occasion, tell me to "get real!"

Junior

[bosco]

Originally posted by Gordon
How long will it be before Houston arrives at your gate?
Actually Gordon, not much longer. I've only been at this place for a short time (20 years this March) and I've seen major changes during that time. Gravel roads turned to blacktop, increase in traffic and noise, flushing out of the deer, wild hogs and other animals out of their natural habitate. But when they helped in the decline of the population of lightning bugs, well that's just too much. What use to be a 14,000 acres cattle ranch behind me is now a 14,000 acre master planned community. Although not directly in my backyard, I can still see lights ... where as before there were stars at night.

It amazes me that folks want to move out of the city, only to bring the city with them. They do not want to give up their comforts, so they move into these master planned communities with their golf courses, country clubs (who defined this term..?), gas stations, schools, dentist officies and I could go on. Oh, I forgot ... the traffic. Get this, these newly planted residents in this master planned community are now complaining about the developer and his building of apartments. Ok, folks ... what did you expect? I guess they didn't hear my voice when I complained about their new community.

You can't really blame anyone. The old farmers and ranches are dieing off and their offspring don't want the hassles of that life, if they ever did. So they sell off acres and acres of land that's been in their family of many years for a few bucks. I guess they just tired of that life. This 14,000 acres I spoke of before was originally part of Stephen F. Austins land that was acquired from the Spanish back many years ago before Texas was even a Replublic. What a shame. But, that's progress.

I could say more, but I will hold my tounge. The wife and I are still here and will stay for awhile longer. The one positive thing is that my property value keeps going up. By the time I retire, it may be a little gold mine. Until then, we'll just hang in there.

Sorry for going a bit overboard on this issue.

[BobbyMike]

Don't worry Bosco, you're excused.

I left Houston in 1989 (all my folks are still there) because of the continued sprawl. I currently live about three hours north of NYC in Columbia County (considered rural). We live in the last town that doesn't have zoning. Currently the new Board is looking into putting zoning into place so we don't get flooded with suburbia.

"They" do all seem to want to move into the country and bring the city with them.

Go figure.

Regards,
Michael