Cummins 4BT

[Gordon Maney]

There was a redesign in the Cummins 6-cylinder a couple of years ago to make it quieter. Was there a corresponding change in the 4-cylinder line?

[MoparNorm]

I'm not familiar with the cylinder redesign, however the one thing that made the most difference in quieting down the Cummins was going to CRD technology, Common Rail Diesel. Part of the change was to meet 2007 emmission requirements so that diesels can continue to be sold. In CA we went two years without the Cummins H.O. for that very reason. The Jeep Liberty has a Chrysler (Detroit Diesel Division) 4 cylinder CRD made in Italy that is very similar to the Cummins CRD design, therefore I assume that the newer 4 cylinder Cummins also must have the CRD design. I'm not sure about the cylinder design, but part of the CRD technology is a high pressure fuel rail that actually pre-ignites the fuel (I have no idea how it works to quiet the motor, but the difference is dramatic), also a part of the quiet package is the relocation of the turbo, from up top to down on the side, farther away from the hood. I suppose some of our diesel gurus will chime in here soon!
MN

PS; I should add that if you are looking for a CRD 4bt it would only have been available since approx. 2003-4, it's very new if it does exist and I assume that it does since ALL diesels have to meet emission standards (low sulfur is also required starting in 2007).

[Sickcall]

I read where the Liberty diesel is rated at 165 hp. I wonder at what rpm they measure this at? The sound levels from the VW diesels are hard to tell apart from a gasser these days.

I have not keep up with the big 3 diesel comparisons but the old Cummins was always louder because it was the only one of the 3 that was direct injected into the cylinder, and did not use a precombustion chamber. It sounds as if with this new design that this has changed.

[MoparNorm]

...at 1800 rpm, it's a good low end motor for towing and off-road.
MN

[JimmieD]

Okay, I can't resist:

Remember Maxwell Smart when he would have secret conversations with the boss? There was a clear perspex bubble that descended to hide their conversation. The physics of it was a 'white noise' generator. There random or non-random noises are generated which effect the verbal noises of sound waves within the bubble cancelling the sond except to the two speakers.

If you look into Rudolf Steinmetz's work on sineusoidal wave harmonics you'll find that waves of any type can be effected by other waves to develop common sympathetic frequencies. If you know the exact frequency you're dealing with you can feed a selected harmonic frequency to cancel or mitigate the dominance of one wave or cause a sympathy between waves.

In an internal combustion engine you have the fuel's explosion causing a sound wave, such as is perceived as spark knock under less than ideal conditions, or the exhaust note otherwise. Knowing the freequency of that wave and the fact that it travels at approximately 1,700 feet per second one may introduce a secondary wave form onto the first at the right distance and modify or mitigate that wave form.

By pre-combusting the fuel mixture in the Benz diesel's fuel rail the process creates an intake wave form that tends to cancel the fuels explosion's wave form through sine wave harmonics. It's similar to shouting at the top of your lungs during an explosion or singing along at a rock and roll concert: for all the noise you're making nobody will hear it.

[Sickcall]

This entire complex is surrounded by Control agents! Agent 99, get their guns!

Yes, the "Cone of Silence". Can you hold on one minute, my shoe is ringing.

[warlock440]

I believe the Cummins splits its fuel into two seperate injections in order to quieten it down..I am not sure exactly how it works but from what I have read elsewhere it injects a percentage of the total fuel charge a few degees before the main charge..

[crike2000]

They increased the thickness of the block and also added a 2 stage injection to keep the the cylinders pressurized.

To quiet older Cummins:
1. There is a block girdle that goes between the block and the oil pan that increases the rigidity of the block. I don't know if there is one for the 4bt, but there is one for the 6bt made by cummins
2. Some of the TDR guys have bought lead fabric and glued it to the oil pan and valve cover to quiet the motor (This works)
3. Tighten the valves to the tightess factory allowance (this will lower the clatter sound)
4. Lastly there are some blankets that you can purchase that will help i think it is made by atpwrap.com (don't know much about this but that it is expensive.

[Andrew Hunt]

A really sweet conversion is using a Mercedes-Benz 5 cylinder, 3.0 liter turbo diesel. I have one in a 1956 rig that weighs about 4,300 lbs with an NP 435 trans, NP 205 trans case, narrowed 14 bolt in rear and narrowed Dana 60 in front. It has lots of power and great torque. It takes off like a race horse when the turbo kicks in. The adaptation was really simple and I used the input shaft from the transmission without any modifications other than to have a custom clutch plate custom made. The pilot shaft was a perfect fit for the inside of the Mercedes pilot bearing, even though one was metric and the other in inches. The 3.0 liter turbo diesel was not offered with stick shift, so I had to use the bell housing off the Mercedes 4 cylinder 2.4 liter diesel engine, which bolted right up. This is a million mile engine that is very plentiful and a good used runner can be bought for about $1,200 to $1,500. I'd be more than happy to give some tips on this engine and re-power if anybody is interested. With Mercedes owning Chrysler now, it’s a good marriage.

[MoparNorm]

Is that the 5 cylinder diesel from the Sprinter?
As for Cummins, the ISB and/or CRD technology is what you guys are talking about, BOTH higher pressure AND pre ignition. Also the turbo was moved to the bottom of the motor, further away from the hood and more sound proofing was added. From 15 feet it sounds nearly as quiet as a gasser. BUT not my 2002, 2nd gen Cummins, I can still get people running out of the house in their pajamas, dragging their trash cans,... on trash day....ha!ha!
MN

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Andrew Hunt
A really sweet conversion is using a Mercedes-Benz 5 cylinder, 3.0 liter turbo diesel. I have one in a 1956 rig that weighs about 4,300 lbs with an NP 435 trans, NP 205 trans case, narrowed 14 bolt in rear and narrowed Dana 60 in front. It has lots of power and great torque. It takes off like a race horse when the turbo kicks in. The adaptation was really simple and I used the input shaft from the transmission without any modifications other than to have a custom clutch plate custom made. The pilot shaft was a perfect fit for the inside of the Mercedes pilot bearing, even though one was metric and the other in inches. The 3.0 liter turbo diesel was not offered with stick shift, so I had to use the bell housing off the Mercedes 4 cylinder 2.4 liter diesel engine, which bolted right up. This is a million mile engine that is very plentiful and a good used runner can be bought for about $1,200 to $1,500. I'd be more than happy to give some tips on this engine and re-power if anybody is interested. With Mercedes owning Chrysler now, it’s a good marriage.

This is very interesting.... would you be willing to do an article with some photos for the magazine?

[JimmieD]

Just curious: what kind of horsepower and torque and at what RPM are we talking about with that Merc diesel?

[Andrew Hunt]

I’d be honored to do an article Gordon. I have one I’m building right now with this same engine and drive-train configuration and I could provide a very detailed “build it” article with lots of “how to” pictures that would walk the reader through the entire process, including where to find a suitable donor vehicle for the engine. If you want, I could do a whole series of articles that walk the reader through the entire process of a turn key re-power, as I finish up the rig I’m building. Just depends on what you want.

[Bill in MI]

Do it!

I'm curious as all........... well, I'm curious.

Are you running the Bosch electronic fuel injection? That's what we run on the VM 2.8L (Jeep Liberty) diesel.

[Andrew Hunt]

Bill:

This engine uses the Bosch mechanical fuel injection system and is versatile enough where you can install the engine and wire it with a simple custom harness not much different than what you have now. The biggest thing you might loose, depending on what you keep and what you throw away of the original harness is the computer that controls the Bosch fuel injection system, which will make the computer inoperable.

When Mercedes introduced the 5 cylinder turbo diesel in 1976 they didn’t just stick a turbo on their 2.4 liter 4 cylinder engine and add another cylinder; they designed and built an entirely new engine, with a computer controlled fuel delivery system that works in tandem with the need for fuel through the injectors, as the RPMs increase when the turbo kicks in. I’m not sure what not having this computer hooked up would do to the performance of the engine. It’s mechanical, so it runs off the engine and doesn’t require electronic controls to operate.

I have a Mercedes family car that has a 3.0 liter six cylinder gas engine, which is a real screamer. Its got enough get up and go that it will put you back in your seat real quick. I’ve attached a list of technical data and specs on the Mercedes 5 cylinder, 3.0 liter turbo diesel, which is a very close cousin to the 3.0 liter six cylinder gas engine in terms of power and acceleration. The engine in the Mercedes UNIMOG is also a 3.0 liter engine, but it’s a 4 cylinder. I have the technical specifications on that engine somewhere and if memory is right, I don’t believe they are much different in horsepower. If you can imagine what a UNIMOG engine swap would be like in your rig, it will give you some idea of what to expect with this engine. The biggest difference between the two is the acceleration of the 5 cylinder turbo.

Andrew

[JimmieD]

Thanks for the technical specs!

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Andrew Hunt
If you want, I could do a whole series of articles that walk the reader through the entire process of a turn key re-power, as I finish up the rig I’m building.

That would be wonderful!!!!

[Bill in MI]

Andrew,

Thanks for sharing. I'm not up on what Mercedes used power plant wise but I'm always interested in learning. It sounds like you've put together great vehicle.

[Andrew Hunt]

Gordon:

Why don’t you email me at jhuntcasi@peak.org, or call me at 541 487-4244 and we can talk about what you want as far as an article.

Andrew

[Andrew Hunt]

Bill:

In my case I just like to tinker and it happens my passion is old 4x4 trucks and vintage classic cars. I have 12 vehicles in various stages of being rebuilt or restored. I’m semi-retired and having fun. My hope is to retire completely in the next couple years and spend full-time rebuilding, restoring and selling or trading vintage / classic vehicles. Since I started aggressively feeding this passion about 15 years ago, I’ve gotten in the habit of not ever throwing the really good stuff away and I’ve ended up a few times with enough parts that I’m able to build a whole vehicle.

The project to build the rig that has the Mercedes 5 cylinder, 3.0 liter turbo diesel in it started after I ended up with a blank frame off a rig I purchased just to harvest the front bumper and winch off of. I cut up the body and scrapped it and gave the drive train to a buddy. Next thing I know I’m buying axels, a transmission, transfer case, an engine and finding myself building a rolling chassis. You know how the story goes from here.

I’m brand new to this website and if you go to the “MILITARY DODGE 4X4 TRUCKS” forum, I’ve got another “Thread” going that describes some of my recent WWII Dodge acquistions. I’ve got vintage Dodge truck fever bad. Through this sight and several books I’ve been hooked. The war era Dodges are just “Big" trucks! And I can’t wait to get my hands into a few of them.

Andrew

[warlock440]

Andrew
what kind of mileage are you getting with the Mercedes Diesel??

[MoparNorm]

...as to my earlier question; is THIS the same engine as the Sprinter 5 cylinder???
MN

[Andrew Hunt]

Norm:

According to specifications I’ve read, the Sprinter has a 2.7 Liter 5-cylinder Mercedes-Benz common rail direct injection diesel engine and is really a Mercedes-Benz with a Dodge or Freightliner grill and nameplate on it.

The 1980’s vintage 5-cylinder diesel Mercedes-Benz engine I’m using boasts 2.99 liters and the specs I’ve seen on the Sprinter 2.7-liter are slightly different. I have not compare the horsepower and torque specs of the two engines, but they are probably close cousins.

There are kits you can buy to convert the Sprinter or Freightliner grills and emblems to Mercedes for around $290. (See http://www.mercedessprintergrille.com)

Andrew

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Andrew Hunt
Gordon:

Why don’t you email me at jhuntcasi@peak.org, or call me at 541 487-4244 and we can talk about what you want as far as an article.

Andrew

I will do that..... making this comment from another location. My computer is in at the computer mechanic's shop.

[dbemis]

One added note that may be of interest; The Mercedes 300 Turbo diesel is one of the most popular candidates for running off vegetable oil etc. It is one of the easiest to do this to and as Andrew mentioned, can be a very long life engine.
David

[Juan]

Got a friend who has a little fleet of Daewoo vans that are powered (oem) with this Mercedes engine. He has 5 vans and 3 of them are reaching the 1,000,000 Km mark (625,000Miles) without opening the engine, just injectors, seals, timing chain, oil and filters. All in 6 years and driven by employees, I think that speaks for those MB engines.

[Andrew Hunt]

There are a lot of bio-diesels where I live and 90% of them are the Mercedes 123 chassis. It smells like French fries driving behind them. Mercedes has been building diesels longer than anybody, so it probably safe to assume they have it figured out by now. Anywhere you go in the world the taxis are Mercedes with the 123 chassis, powered by either the 2.4 liter, 4 cylinder or 3.0 liter, 5 cylinder engine. I’ve heard that it is not uncommon to see daily drivers with over a million miles on them. There is a very plentiful supply of good used Mercedes that utilize this engine.

I’ve attached a clip out of my Mercedes Service Manual for the 3.0 liter, 5 cylinder engine that shows just some of the chassis, models and years this engine was installed in. The one I have came out of a 1983 300 D, which is also the 123 chassis and the manual this clip out of is for the 1978 thru 1982 model years, which is still current for my engine through the engines into the late 1980’s Mercedes. I’ve looked at the most recent late model Mercedes with a 3.0 liter, 5 cylinder engine and its nothing I recognize, but I’m sure under all that stuff is an engine that is probably quite similar.

Andrew

MB 3.0 liter, 5 Cylinder Engine

[Andrew Hunt]

MB 3.0 liter, 5 cylinder engine Cost

Back to your question about mileage Warlock, I’m not sure what to expect for mileage. This rig is “In Process” and I won’t know till I finish it. The Mercedes the engine came out of got 22 to 25 mpg and weighed about the same as my rig, but with the axels, wheels, transmission and transfer case I’m running, I would be surprised if I get 10 or 12 mpg. I’m just finishing the rolling chassis and am getting the body ready to put on.

When I went looking for an engine, I bought the whole car. I located it in Seattle and trailered it home. The picture is of the car with my dog and I in front of the shop I bought it from, which is a Mercedes Service Garage and this was their parts runner. The engine was rebuilt 10K miles ago by the shop for a customer who couldn’t pay the bill. I actually drove the car and had a diesel mechanic friend of mine check it out before I bought it.

I could have had just the engine for $1,200 or the whole car for $1,500. With the car I got all the computers, electronics, wiring harness, etc., and it gives me a physical vehicle I can use to indicate how to put the engine compartment back together in a different front clip than what it came from. It’s a mumbo-jumbo of wires and hoses and could be quite confusing. Without having the donor vehicle to reference off, it wouldn’t be any fun.

Andrew

[MoparNorm]

Thanks Andrew,
So this is an older, non CRD diesel?
Has anyone found any information about how the 2007 Federal low sulfur fuel regulations is going to impact pre- 2007 motors? At present, CA and 5 eastern states, do not allow the sale of new diesels that do not meet the 2007 standards. It took several years for the ISB Cummins to be approved, in CA , the Detroit Diesel 2.8 that is sold in the Jeep Liberty in 49 states cannot be sold here.
I'm starting to worry that my 2002 Cummins that is a 2nd generation Cummins may have problems running on the new fuels. Any thoughts?
MN

[crike2000]

I have a 99 cummins and am trying to get in the habit of always adding a lubricating additive to my fuel. I don't want to burn up a $1500 injector pump. I will probably start buying standyne by the case.

[Gene Climer]

I have purchased a 2003 ISB170 off eBay. Still waiting for it to get here. It has a common-rail injection system. The fuel is not really pre-ignited. It simply has a very high pressure "common rail" of fuel that is direct injected into the cylinders, and it uses what is called Pilot Injection.

Pilot Injection is when a small charge of fuel is shot into the cylinder which starts a slow burn process, then more fuel is shot in on top of that, which adds highly atomized fuel to the existing burn process. I think they may shoot as many as 2-4 times at low rpm. Each shot is small, so the giant detonation noise is not there, just a series of smaller bursts, each with a significantly smaller peak amplitude. This is what quiets the motor down. Instead of one big bang, like older diesels, it is a series of smaller pops. Hope this helps. Gene

[Gordon Maney]

I have purchased a 2003 ISB170 off eBay. Still waiting for it to get here. It has a common-rail injection system. The fuel is not really pre-ignited. It simply has a very high pressure "common rail" of fuel that is direct injected into the cylinders, and it uses what is called Pilot Injection.

Pilot Injection is when a small charge of fuel is shot into the cylinder which starts a slow burn process, then more fuel is shot in on top of that, which adds highly atomized fuel to the existing burn process. I think they may shoot as many as 2-4 times at low rpm. Each shot is small, so the giant detonation noise is not there, just a series of smaller bursts, each with a significantly smaller peak amplitude. This is what quiets the motor down. Instead of one big bang, like older diesels, it is a series of smaller pops. Hope this helps. Gene

Very exciting news. I was hoping that there was a 4BT that paralleled the 2003 6BT with regard to noise level.

Please keep us posted on this project. Also, I would really like to to include an article in the Power Wagon Advertiser on such a conversion. Would you be willing to be a part of that?

Did I mention that this is very exciting? The noise level is something that has kept me from pressing very far into one of these 4 cylinder conversions in an early Dodge.

[MoparNorm]

Gordon,
If you are seriously thinking about the newer diesels, wait a few, there are motors coming in 2007 that will knock your socks off! One example is a 4.0 with 375 HP and & 700 lbs of torque getting 35 mpg. These motors are not on the drawing boards, they are real and waiting for the new low sulfur fuels in the fall of this year. Exciting times are ahead for clean quiet diesel technology. Cummins and Dodge are on the verge of warrantee certifying B20 and higher bio diesel also.
MN

[Bruce]

Hey Norm,
What kind of $$ are we talking about, if & when this happens?

[Gordon Maney]

Hey Norm,
What kind of $$ are we talking about, if & when this happens?
This is not an answer to your question, but is offered to give some sense of scale.

I was on the phone several years ago with our local Cummins distributor, asking about 4BT engines as new purchases. There were some alternative configurations, and I sensed that the guy thought I was not a serious buyer, so he would not put much effort in to pricing. Having said that, we were in the $7,500 range, as I recall.

Perhaps others here can offer more specific, factual information. I don't really know what a new 6BT would cost, with accessories and flywheel.

[Bruce]

I Guess?
Hello Gordon,
That does seam a little pricy, I will play the "wait & see" game.

[MoparNorm]

The wait is probably at least a few years for a used unit. If they are available in the Fall of this year, and like the 4bt powered Frito-Lay trucks, they cycle out of service after 150,000 miles, it could be as soon as 2-3 years or as many as 5. That doesn't allow for the occasional crash and burn that you may stumble across at a salvage yard. The $7,500 is about right for a new unit, the salvage action rigs are way cheaper, but way far on the horizon....
MN

[BobbyMike]

That would be wonderful!!!!

Just bumping this to see if/when this series will be coming in the future. There's a few of these MB's around here that go for relatively cheap (all the salt around here). I'm interested in doing this myself, but would need the guidance.

[Gene Climer]

Very exciting news. I would really like to to include an article in the Power Wagon Advertiser on such a conversion. Would you be willing to be a part of that?

Absolutely! I have had the motor for quite awhile, now.

The ISB170 came with a rear gear drive for the fuel pump. Meaning that the common rail fuel pump was driven off of a gear housing on the flywheel side of the motor. The ordinary 4BT and all Dodge Cummins motors have the gear drive on the front (Fan) side of the motor.

Anywho, this caused gloom, despair and great agony. The problem being that the ISB170 most often has an SAE#3 Flywheel Housing. The ISB170 would not accept the Dodge Flywheel Housing I had bought for the conversion. And you can not buy a Cummins Flywheel Housing for the ISB170 to mate it to the Dodge pattern. However, you can buy a Ford Housing if you lean that way, if you know what I mean (I am a Dodge man, however).

So, I decided to fabricate one. Yup. "Oh what fun it is to ride in a one horse open sleigh..." cuz that would be easier, cheaper and faster than fabricating one of these Bell Housings! I have two of them completed now. One to use and one to sell. I started two just in case I flubbed one of them up along the way.

Anyway, I hung it all together just about a month ago. The ISB170 with the SAE#3 Flywheel Housing, connected to the custom Bell Housing, connected to the NV4500HD transmission, connected to the NP-205 Twin Stick Transfer Case. It was a glorious day when all those parts came together.

Now I am tweeking my fabricated motor and tranny brackets. I am using the Lord's Fluidlastic motor mounts, and a Dodge transfer case tranny mount. You can see the bits and pieces coming together by clicking -here- (http://www.beckersauto.com/GeneClimer.htm) . Or you can type it in like so: http://www.beckersauto.com/GeneClimer.htm

I'd love to help out with an article on this when I get further down the road.

Gene

[MoparNorm]

That...is quite the project!

[Andrew Hunt]

When this thread 1st started I said I'd supply more info and a potential article on the conversion to using a Mercedes 3.0 liter, 5 cyl turbo diesel engine and I’ve unfortunately gotten side tracked on multiple other projects.

There’s a Mercedes-Benz forum for those of you who are interested where you can learn more about this conversion and meet some other folks that have done it with other 4X4s that I'm sure would be helpful.

My member name in this forum is MB300se65 and you will see that I still have many questions about what I’m doing, but I’ve found this forum to be a great place to get answers and buy engines or parts.

I recently purchased a good running 83’ 300 Turbo Diesel on this forum for $200 that had been in a slight accident, which I’m having the body work done on and giving to one of my daughters as a Christmas present.

One of the threads on this forum that goes into a lot of detail on this conversion is located at: www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=192149&highlight=mb300se65

[JimmieD]

When this thread 1st started I said I'd supply more info and a potential article on the conversion to using a Mercedes 3.0 liter, 5 cyl turbo diesel engine and I’ve unfortunately gotten side tracked on multiple other projects.

There’s a Mercedes-Benz forum for those of you who are interested where you can learn more about this conversion and meet some other folks that have done it with other 4X4s that I'm sure would be helpful.

My member name in this forum is MB300se65 and you will see that I still have many questions about what I’m doing, but I’ve found this forum to be a great place to get answers and buy engines or parts.

I recently purchased a good running 83’ 300 Turbo Diesel on this forum for $200 that had been in a slight accident, which I’m having the body work done on and giving to one of my daughters as a Christmas present.

One of the threads on this forum that goes into a lot of detail on this conversion is located at: www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=192149&highlight=mb300se65

Hey, Andrew, just wanted to let you know: I'm up for adoption, have all my shots, papers and everything. Self-supporting and would promise to continuously honor my new proud parent telling the whole world all about the slick rides I get for Christmas. We might even be able to finagle a dandy tax write-off on it. Something to think about, dad......

[Andrew Hunt]

HA!

My wife wants to know if you cook ,clean and do dishes?

: )