Diesel prices

[Doc Dave]

Does anyone really KNOW why diesel is so high? Back in the summer of '04, it was cheaper than regular gas. That made sense, it is less refined.
By last spring it was more than gas. Some local guy who pumped gas told me, "wait until schools out in June, when all those school buses are off the road, the price will drop down again". Well, it did not happen!
I like my diesel truck for many reasons, and am going to keep it. I just would like to know, is it supply and demand...driven by a misallocation of refinery capacity, or what?
BTW, in our county, gas was $2.19 a gallon today.

[JimmieD]

'Supply and Demand' is a thing of the distant past my friend. Today's economics are firmly rooted in a new philosophy across the board: 'What the Market Will Bear'. That is, what is the absolute highest price I can charge for the barest minimum of goods and services and not get lynched, burned down, blown up, tarred and feathered? In government the only limiting factor is incitement of mass anarchy and sedition or civil war. So far it seems to be working very well, for them.

Did you happen to stumble onto the post regarding gas prices/printer ink cartridges in this same forum, hmmmm....?

JimmieD

[cpstover]

Diesel fuel and home heating oil are very close to each other. I locked in my home heating oil @ 2.09 a gallon ( last year 1.59 and year before 1.09 ). Right now heating oil is around 2.29 and diesel in NH is around 2.65....(88.25 to put 33 +/- gallons in a fire truck).

Its not all supply vs demand....how high can we go before the consumer slows comsuption...Also which consumers can we hit cause theres nothing they can do but take it.....

[Charles Talbert]

They got it, you need it, they don't have any problem with ripping you off severely & sleeping tonight. Do you get the picture here? We live in a world driven by GREED.

[DDEMILLE]

What The Market Will Bear

I sell / used to sell industrial supplies. I called on tank farms owned by major oil companies. I noticed the same companies charged different prices in different cities. When I asked a terminal manager why, I was told, "(One city) will bear a higher price, always has". It truly is "whatever the market will bear". We really need to shop for the best price to get the competition back into fuels. We shop for fuel oil, propane, coal and electric prices. Propane can vary as much as $1 per gallon. Somebody is buying enough of this stuff to keep the company in business.
Doug

[dbemis]

China and India. Obviously, American Oil companies could drill, produce and refine oil and then sell it alot cheaper than they are and still make a decent profit. However, places like China and India (where so many jobs are exported to) are offering to buy the oil at higher prices so, voila! There it goes. It doesn't matter if we find and produce more in the future if we don't find a way to keep these other buyers from being happy to always pay more. The American consumer doesn't have as much clout as we think because we are not the only consumer. In places like China and India, their other costs of production (outside of fuel) are cheaper than ours (labor, real estate, taxes, etc) and so they can afford to pay more for the fuel. When those other costs go up then they will become less eager to keep bidding up the cost of oil. We need to make their workers want to buy ever more expensive comodities (preferably made in America) so that they will need to earn more etc. Also it is helpful if their governments increase their spending (and thus increase taxation.) We need to make it cheaper for us to use the oil and thus gain back some competitive edge. Taxing the huge profits made on selling the oil to non US buyers and using that to develope alternative energy sources would help reduce our demand and thus help control the cost. The question is, will any of this happen? I predict that the politicians well sell the idea that we need to produce more oil from within the US and go that route. But, what will happen is that that will only mean that the oil companies will have more to sell to China. I am not against producing more oil, I just don't believe that it is any way an answer either short or long term.
David

[Cheyenne Dave]

Don't forget the tax on diesel. You will find that the fuel itself is still cheaper than gas....


DAB

[MoparNorm]

Originally posted by Doc Dave
Does anyone really KNOW why diesel is so high?

I'm going to disagree with some of my dear friends here, the law of supply and demand was never more evident than with the current diesel prices.
Heating oil, ag fuel and diesel number two are basically the same fuel less the NOT for Hi-way use dye.
Right now, heating fuel production is taking a great deal away from the Diesel # 2 production for vehicles. Therefore less supply, at the moment. Hurricane Katrina disrupted at least 25% of domestic oil production creating potential shortages. Since most VOTERS drive gasoline powered vehicles, fuel production was shifted away from diesel towards gasoline for several months, therefore less supply. On the demand side, there are many consumers using diesel vehicles, but most power plants, over-the-road truckers, trains, ships and aircraft burn diesel or a derivitaive of diesel. The economy is booming, therefore demand is high and supply was low. The supply is starting to get back into balance now and in the last several weeks diesel has come down over 75 cents per gallon here in SoCal.
Lastly, industrial demand in India and China is at an all time high, crude production is up, and most of the worlds oil is no longer under our control, American refiners have to compete on the world market for their crude oil, if china is willing and able to pay more (think about that the next time you buy a chinese product) then that increases the cost as the bidding goes up.
There has not been a new refinery built in the US for over 30 years, permits, enviromental regulations and NIMBY resistance have prevented us from keeping pace with demand. There is plenty of oil available, but limited ability to refine it into the 75 plus regional formulas required by the EPA.
Conventional wisdom used to think that oil came from dinosauers and was limited in supply, but fields that were once "empty" are now being found to have replenished themselves, from seepage or "other" sources. Scientist are beginning to believe that oil may come, not from animal but from decomposing plants which may mean that the theory of diminishing supply is wrong. The worlds largest supply of oil, in the form of oil shale is under the western US and may yet have promise as research, which has been going on for 60 years, including an underground nuclear explosion near Rifle CO in the early 70's, continues.
In the short term, we need more exploration, drilling in Alaska and more refining capacity if we are to meet our energy needs now. In real dollars fuel is cheaper now than it was in 1960. It could be even cheaper with a steady safe supply of domestic oil, ample refining capacity, and the ability to safely and cleanly drill off of our coasts, where approximately 45% of our oil reserves are currently found.
Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, alternate fuels, bio-fuels and nuclear power plants will all help in the near future, but you have to remember that it took 125 years to get oil and the automobile where it is today. It will take another 50 years to get technology and fueling systems in place to the point where hydrogen and other technologies will or can compete. Electrical powered vehicles were tried and failed in CA because the government cannot regulate lifestyle, the changes HAVE to be market driven, not mandated.
Most of what we think we know today is Junk Science from the media. "Global Warming" "Oil Shortage" "Irreversible Pollution" are all political concepts, NOT proven science.
Supply and demand always has and always will be the governing law of a free societys economic system. Any failures of the laws of economics are only because the government has disrupted the market by injecting regulations and controls into the mix that harm the consumer and slow down growth.
You must understand that there is NO SUCH THING as a "windfall profit tax" corporate tax or business tax. All that is, is code for higher prices, because EVERY TAX is already factored into a companies overhead and is passed down to us, the consumer.
The same goes for regulations intended to control methods and means, they ALL result in higher cost to the companies and therefore higher prices to the consumer. While we all agree that safety regulations and environmental controls are needed and desired, we must balance that need with an eye on cost. When politicians with an agenda start passing regulations with little or no knowledge of ecomomics you get the results we have today.
Funny that we heard little over the past few years of record oil company losses, but as soon as they make money we are all up in arms. Even though the amounts of oil company profits are huge, they represent less than a 10% profit for most of the companies, very small by today standards when companies and clothing distributors and distributors of junk chinese products routinely mark up their items by as much as 200%.
MN

[M5tankdriver]

The huge oil companies that dominate the price and availability of gas/diesel probably have more power than we can imagine. Car manufacturers can produce 50mpg autos (Volkswagon TDI) but they don't. The government can legislate higher MPG standards for autos, but they don't. There is an underground bunch of small manufacturers of bio-diesel (made from soybean oil) that isn't going mainstream. The list goes on. Big oil has a firm hold on our government. We will be metered just enough oil to keep profits high because this makes the most money. As an added bonus the gov. gets huge tax money from it. No conspiracy theory maniac here, just looking for that $1.99 gallon of diesel fuel.

[MoparNorm]

Any car manufacturer that can produce a high mileage car, will do so. No company keeps it's advantage on the shelf, that's just poor business, and it makes no sense whatsoever, you never give your competition a break. It is in the best interest of auto manufactuers to have a stable cheap supply of fuel, they are not allies of the oil companies, but neither one can operate independent of the other, no fuel, no car sales, no car sales no fuel sales.

The government can and does mandate fuel standards, that's the CAFE I was refering to. I also stated that the government cannot push technologies, only the market (that's you) can. If people wanted 51 mpg cars the car companies would build them, today people want SUV's and trucks that are practical, seen any Yugos lately?
Whatever the market demands, a company will provide. GM built electric cars, no one bought them.

Bio is NOT underground, ALL cars and trucks in CA run on B5 fuel, ALL Chrysler products are shipped from the factory with B5 in the tank, it's not underground, it is mainstream and growing Cummins will honor warrantees with bio up to B15, the change is coming, re-read my post above.

The one thing you have right is that the government makes huge profit on fuel sales, more per gallon than the oil companies make. 54 cents per gallon in CA. To think that fuel is rationed to make more money shows a basic lack of economic education. You make MORE money by selling more product, not by selling less, you make MORE money selling in volume, not by selling less.
Show some proof that big oil has ANY hold on the government, they are regulated to near death. It is reckless to state thoughts as facts without evidence and it doesn't help provide a solution to the problem.
Support refinery building, drilling offshore, drilling in Alaska and a free market and you will have your fuel at $1.50.
Our education system has seriously failed our country when the most capitalist country on earth cannot educate it's citizens about how the economy works. Education in the entire rest of the world teaches their students to emulate and copy the USA and learn our economic system, here we learn about half baked conspiracy theories and about some imaginary evil. The only evil is the failure of our system to educate our children. Basic economic theory dictates that if someone is charging too much for a product, someone else will come in and sell it for less. In this case misguided intervention by government regulation and taxes has created a false bottom to the laws of supply. Oil companies don't control the price of their product, government regulations and an informed, educated consumer dictate that. When you see three fuel stations on opposite street corners, do you look for the highest or lowest price? If you and others continue to shop at the low price station, the high price station must either lower it's price or close it's doors, it's really quite simple, no oil company imaginary evil scheme is forcing anyone to go to the higher priced station, just ignorant or lazy consumers who pull in by habit instead of looking at the price signs. If all three stations are too "high" go to the lowest priced station, the other two will be forced to lower their prices to compete, then you go there and the higher priced one will have to lower it's prices. It always worked this way, for some reason people have forgotten to look at the price signs or blindly shop by habit?
MN

[DDEMILLE]

Powerplant Fuel

I agree with everything Norm has said, with one exception.
Powerplants use oil as a last resort only. Although oil has more BTUs than other fuels is has it's own set of operating problems. Very few plants use #2 oil. Almost all oil burning plants use #6 oil (which is also lower on the distillation column), which has to be heated just to make it flow. Most large plants are coal fired. The next fuel of choice is natural gas. Many plants switched over ( very expensive) from coal to gas when the EPA came down on sulphur emissions and gas was relatively cheap. Now they're sorry. Some plants have the option of running more than one fuel type and coal (in states where it is available) is still their choice for economy. With all that said, most of the fossil fuel plants I'm familiar with are from the the midwest to the east. Southern California could be an exception.

Doug

[MoparNorm]

I didn't go into a great deal of detail on the powerplant fuel, just linking it to diesel type oils and the fact that I was over the 5,000 word limit...ha!ha!
SoCal uses natural gas, but only in an event of a stage three smog alert, it is too expensive otherwise. We have many steam boilers, fed by oil, but much of our power comes from Hydro-electric, we have that itty bitty little dam called Hoover on the Colorado River, and Nuclear, two local plants, and some wind/solar, about enough for 150,000 homes.
The United States has enough coal to last many years, we should be cleaning it up and using it. Just as coal has the sulfur problem, that is also one of the problems with the refineries, some are specific fo rrefining only sweet crude and some are only for sour (high sulfur) crude.
PS: who has the job to taste it in order to tell if it is sweet or sour? = )
Eventually there will be energy breakthroughs but in the meantime we have to use what we have.
MN

[M5tankdriver]

I am but an acorn to the mighty oak, MoparNorm. Clearly you are well educated sir but you take a bit too much from what I was saying... Most likely I was unclear:

The oil companies produce a certain amount of oil (see MN for exact amount) they sell every drop of refined oil. If they were to produce more than they sold in any given amount of time then the process would no longer be 100% efficient as it is now. As for ties to the government, well, let the VP and his 'secret' meetings with oil companies tell you about that. The recent showing of big oil at the senate hearing was not under oath... As it turns out that is a good thing because some of the participants would have perjured themselves by claiming to have not met with the VP. Let me clear the air out here though: I voted for this administration and will continue to support them. I am not bashing our leaders.

The car companies can build very high MPG cars and people do buy them, hybrids have a waiting list in Louisville!

I know the CAFE (I really did read your post) exists but I was trying to say that without raising the standards it does no good to have the standards. In the last big transportation bill they passed there were reports this number did not go up at all. (I didn't actually get to see the bill)

I am quite pleased to hear about the BIO fuel making inroads into the petro market. There is no biodiesel for sale in louisville that I am aware of.

[MoparNorm]

Originally posted by M5tankdriver

The oil companies produce a certain amount of oil (see MN for exact amount) they sell every drop of refined oil. If they were to produce more than they sold in any given amount of time then the process would no longer be 100% efficient as it is now...

...The car companies can build very high MPG cars and people do buy them, hybrids have a waiting list in Louisville!



If the oil companies produce more, then the supply increases and the price lowers, but the profit remains and as you say, they sell every drop, so whoever makes the most will sell the most and therefore increase their market share, the more they produce the more efficient they become, not less and the price will drop. Unused capacity is not 100% efficient. In economic theory, whoever makes the most, will sell the most at a lower price, it's the same principal that WalMart uses.
The same goes for the hybrids, they have a waiting list everywhere because supply cannot keep up with demand. The real issue is their performance over time and their ability to work in all conditions. They can't be used for hauling loads or towing, but there are a lot of customers out there who only need a commuter vehicle and these may be perfect for that. Either way it is for the market to decide, not the regulators.
MN

PS: Haliburton is a construction company not an oil company. Assuming that there was some twilight zone connection between the government and Haliburton (there isn't) we should be afraid of "Big Construction" not "Big Oil" = ). The Vice President met with oil companies to get their input for an energy plan, nothing sinister about that. If I was going to get a handle on energy needs and concerns, I'd talk to the source, not Green Peace.

[Cheyenne Dave]

You call this drivel? You are slipping, my friend! I feel like I gotta go back to school now....

Dave

[JimmieD]

I try to stay away from conspiracy theories whenever possible simply for the sake of peace of mind. However I do remain keenly aware of interesting 'coincidences', hence the following Q & A:

*Whose idea was it to make China a world Super Power by artificially providing them the ability to wage war on the world's economic market?
*Who actually profit$ from EPA's declarations, determinations and mandates?
*If China would indeed become a major force within the world industrial/economic complex who would stand to make the greatest profit from that, outside of China?
*Who told us that the creation of laws allowing this industrial explosion and economic expansion in China would benefit American people and give us a source of goods at greatly reduced prices, due to China's lower economic level and lower wages for its [slave] workers?
*We had many more refineries some few years back, but one by one they were shut down. The purported cause of shutdowns is an interesting study in itself. Now the cry is that it is just too expensive to build new ones while maintaining equity with EPA mandates, so we must suffer through and do our best with diminished production. Who directly profited from the shutdown of refineries, in the big picture and over the long term?
*What is necessary to control the sulphur content of sour fuels emissions, ON THE VEHICLE AS IT IS OPERATED, in order to accomplish compliance with EPA emissions regulations, and what is NOT being done, by whom, to arrive at a solution?
*What 2 or 3 entities make the most profit from past, current and known future conditions caused by these circumstances?
*Which entities are possessed of such a vast corporate conglomerate of diversification and have such a cadre of financial experts available that they are able to 'cook the books' to apply all costs of expansions, new constructions, financial losses in the many armed octopus of corporate entity across the board and then use that to justify renegade prices in one single [most profitable] sector of their corporation?
*What entities or groups are in a position to continuously profit regardless of current status of world government powers, political 'shifts', rising and falling nations, regional national economics, war, peace, good weather, bad weather etc.?
*What entities or groups are keenly aware that there is enough wealth in the total wealth of the world to allow that ALL PEOPLE, as in ALL, could be multi-billionaires and still not exceed the total wealth of the world [hard fact] and of those entities or groups, who controls that wealth?
*Is there any visible proof from current, past and future economics, industrial production, world political intrigues etc. that there is a possibility that such entities are manipulating the pieces on the playing field so as to increase their wealth? Is there any veracity to the theory that you can make far more profits/money from creating a crisis of need and filling it than from waiting for one to come along by happenstance?
*Which groups or entities are past masters of crisis management including the creation of crises and profitting from the needs created by same?
*Which groups or entities have learned these seemingly arcane principles and have possibly applied them to our lives, we who are far too stupid to figure it out, and are continuously reaping the profits from direct application of said principles if they are indeed being manipulated into positions of pressure against us?

I'm not saying that all players alluded to here are married as one, or even that they are all in bed together, but I do suggest that they are engaged in some very heavy petting in the back seat and it is steaming up the windows of our world economic vehicle as we try to negotiate the twisty road of life and arrive at a destination for which they have drawn the roadmap, unbeknownst to us. There is one basic rule that must be applied in the unravelling of certain tyes of crimes and intrigues: FOLLOW THE MONEY.

[BobbyMike]

When people talk about "more fuel efficient" cars in this country, and how the manufacturers aren't supporting the making/marketing of them I would just point to Europe and Japan. They have had smaller, more fuel efficient cars there since the end of WWII. They have them because the consumers want them. We, as a general rule, don't want them.(Their governments task the heck out of vehicle fuel too, to keep usage down)

As to hybrids, recent studies have shown that they don't actually save the consumer money to operate. If I can find a link to the most recent I read I'll post it.

If you're looking for conspiracy theories from manufacturers, start at companies that make razors. Safety razors are arguably the best tools on the market to shave a man's face. The steel in safety razors is of much better quality then in any of those "double/triple track super-duper razors". Yet the companies push the new fangled razors because they get more profit from cheaper made products that need to be replaced more often.

I chose to buy my M37 as a daily driver/work truck because I felt the operating costs, even with the sub 10/MPG fuel usage, would still be cheaper then putting the same amount down on a new (or almost new) truck and having to borrow the rest of the money and pay interest. I don't feel powerless in this situation. When people fell powerless they're susceptible to any conspiracy theory that comes along. I want to remind everyone that most of these theories come from extremist groups that really believe that no government (anarchy) and no technology are the way to go.

I am a believer in limited government and I do think our State and federal governments have become tax happy. They routinely bring up class warfare as a way to separate us (the voting consumers) and to incite emotional responses. They don't want an informed populance, just a responsive one (the rhetoric on all sides during the last election was appalling). This is not a new thing.

Remember the "Robber Barons" of the last century? Those gentlemen brought cheaper goods and services (including fuel) to the consumers. Check here for nice article by John Stoessel (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1105/stossel111605.php3)

Look on the bright side, as screwed up as the USA can be, we've still got the best thing going!

[JimmieD]

Now for an example, stolen from my own post in another thread:

Let's see, how can I as a corporation derive the most possible profit from my product without getting blown up, burned down, tarred and feathered etc.? Aha! I will produce and sell my product at the lowest margin or profit to stimulate sales, while simultaneously creating an insurmountable crisis for the consumer of my product, thence remaining in a position to provide the only solution to that current crisis.

Bought any printer ink cartridges lately me buckos?

"THE PRINTER'S OUT OF INK, AND I'VE GOT TO GET THIS REPORT OUT; WHAT CAN I DO?"

Saw a brand new Hewlett Packard printer and a Lexmark on 'sale' at Wally World China Outlet Store a couple of days ago for $24.99 each/either. From the rack above you could purcha$e the replacement ink cartridge$, which will solve an ongoing crisis of need for as long as you own and use the printer, for a cost of approximately [can't remember what the math came out to, but wasn't it] $4,992 per gallon.

Ridiculous conspiracy theory and just where do these wackos come from anyway?

Anybody bought a replacement circuit board for the PROCESS CONTROL computer in their vehicle lately?

Which particular piece of apparel made by which company is the ONLY ONE ACCEPTABLE to your teenager/husband/wife in order to answer the crisis of social accepteance i.e. being 'one of the gang', with the determination of such suitability created by which company's advertising onslaughts?

Is a picture forming yet.....?

[JimmieD]

A further comment on the thoughts addressed in the last posts:

A man was speaking quite some years ago and made a perplexing point......

"Okay, okay fine, you say that I'm a 'Conspiracy Theorist' and a wacko. Okay, fine; but answer me this: how come the cookie NEVER breaks that we get the big piece, and we ALWAYS end up getting nothing but crumbs and excuses?"

And again, it has been said that, "Even paranoids may have very real enemies..."

Charles Talbert spelled it out a few posts back, clearly and succinctly: "Man's greed"; and sometimes men get together and form incorporations for their own mutual yet exclusive benefit, and we aren't them.

[BobbyMike]

JimmieD,

Excellent examples of marketing, but not a conspiracy, as there are numerous ways to buy other products that will do the same thing for less. It's still possible to buy printers that don't require you to pay that much for refills. it's also possible to skip the color printer and buy an inexpensive laser printer and buy a toner cartridge every year or so. Do you really need a color printer? It's way cheaper to print pictures from an online provider (and get better quality) than doing yourself.

Uninformed people are just that, uninformed. It's our responsibility as consumers to know what's a good deal and buy accordingly.

Brand acceptance is driven by "Least Common Denominator" thinking. If your child/wife/husband will only wear a particular brand, who's fault is that? The manufacturer? I don't think so. It's their fault. My kids don't "want" to wear any particular brand. Is that because their smarter than other kids? No. It's because I've explained to them, over and over, that commercials and movies exist solely to convince them that they don't have the right stuff and need to buy more stuff. They understand marketing. They want stuff that lasts. They base their choice of toys on what they like and what will last the longest.

It helps that we don't have TV reception and don't pay for cable. Most of broadcast and cable TV is mind-rot that simply fills the time between commercials.

Marketing came into existence to promote a maker's goods over another makers. If you make your choices based on commercials and Ads, than you get what you pay for, Caveat Emptor. If you base your purchases based on solid research than you also get what you pay for.

The problem with conspiracy theories are that they effectively take control away from you and give you nothing but stress and anger in return. If the price of printer ink refills makes you fume, do some research and buy a printer that gives you more control over your choices when it comes time to get refills.

If your car's onboard computer costs so much, do better vehicle research and buy your next vehicle based on how well they traditional hold up. I sold cars for two years while I was healing up from some construction related injuries and I got to know pretty quickly what vehicles didn't stand up to usage. US manufacturer's, unfortunately, know that buyers here, on the average, buy or lease a new car/truck every three years (or less). So they construct the cars to hold out (hopefully) a little longer than that. That used to be true for only passenger cars, but after Lee Iaocca destroyed quality manufacturing at Chrysler (in his "brilliant" turn around of the company) Auto makers started mixing in less durable parts into their truck/van lines. Because more consumers were buying those vehicles as passenger vehicles (and planning on getting new ones in a few years) they were able to do this and still be profitable.

This is a trend that the majority of consumers have happily supported by purchasing vehicles based on perceived value as opposed to traditional values based on durability/build quality. Chrysler vehicles are known for "high-style" concept vehicles pushed out onto cheap platforms (think PT Cruiser which is basically a rebodied Neon). People want glitz, not real value.

This is a problem with consumers, not manufacturers.

[JimmieD]

Mankind's history is a patchwork quilt of scheming, fraud, misrepresentation, self-serving deceits and gross immorality. Some things never change. This most recent iteration of those traits is simply that, as Charles said.

I have two different friends who are former bank robbers by trade. They enjoyed the excitement and the monetary benefits and the casual work schedule. Both men were caught, tried and convicted and served their time. Much longer ago, Willy Sutton, an infamous bank robber, was queried by a reporter:

"Willy, why did you keep robbing banks?" to which Willy quickly replied, "'Cause that's where all the money is...."

He too was caught. They were all caught in the same way: the authorities studied their patterns and were able to trace down the perpetrators by their 'Modus Operandi' or mode of operation. They were set in their ways and failed to vary the game. Many men, good and evil alike, are able to study history and profit from it, contrary to common belief. Here a thoughtful man may realize the fatal flaw in the game plan of those former thieves and make certain adjustments to their own wicked ways in order to escape virtually free, even from suspicion or claims of illegal associations.

We are witnessing that in the diesel fuel prices. The heat was on regarding the gasoline pricing scam, so time to change horses so to speak, and still make a profit while making a getaway. They can wait 'til things cool down on the gasoline accusations, and move into diesel price gouging. Come winter they can relax diesel AND gasoline pricing, showing themselves to be working so hard for the benefit of their beloved customers, while they jack the prices of heating oil, plastic's raw materials, pharmaceuticals [you DID know that they are the same companies, didn't you?], or maybe clothing fibres, or roofing materials, or houshold cleaning products, or raw materials for paints and protective finishes, and the list goes on.

Did you ever wonder why the price of EVERYTHING is skyrocketing out of control, while the same companies still report record profits quarter after quarter regardless of the events that are seen? It's that very old and tried and true Shell Game, and we're the rubes.

The most famous and widely sold and read book in history has a line in it, "The heart of man is desperately wicked; who can know?" We have allowed our present America and world to become a society that is primarily bereft of morals, ethics and Godly principles, because God has become for the most part unfashionable and seemingly unprofitable, at least to these I refer to. So, just what can one expect in a godless, immoral, unethical world manipulated by men who are godless, immoral and unethical?

Better be careful now, 'cause I've stepped over the line of social acceptability and may perchance offend. Well, like it or not, believe it or reject it but the truth remains to be seen and oh so painfully clearly. 'Fill 'er up there, buddy!" or has it degenerated far enough that you even pump your own? Yes, we pump our own selves up and pay the price, and that daily and continually.

[BobbyMike]

Originally posted by JimmieD
A further comment on the thoughts addressed in the last posts:

A man was speaking quite some years ago and made a perplexing point......

"Okay, okay fine, you say that I'm a 'Conspiracy Theorist' and a wacko. Okay, fine; but answer me this: how come the cookie NEVER breaks that we get the big piece, and we ALWAYS end up getting nothing but crumbs and excuses?"

And again, it has been said that, "Even paranoids may have very real enemies..."

Charles Talbert spelled it out a few posts back, clearly and succinctly: "Man's greed"; and sometimes men get together and form incorporations for their own mutual yet exclusive benefit, and we aren't them.

"Man's greed", is that when someone tries to get something for nothing? Most scams are based on the idea that people are traditionally greedy and want "something for nothing". The infamous "Nigerian" email scam is based on the idea that you will give out secure bank data because you want "something for nothing". That means two greedy people are at the focal point of that scam, the scammer and the scammee.

If you, as a consumer, don't take responsiblity for what you purchase, than who's at fault? If someone fools you once it may be their fault, but if you fall for it twice it's yours. There are decent manufacturers out there that just want to make a living making a good product, at fair prices. Find them and support them. Educate others about crappy products. Drive the "greedy" manufacturers either out of business, or into respectibility, by market forces, ie., not buying their junk.

Conspiracy means secretive decisions made behind closed doors. All this stuff is very visible and right out there for everyone to see. It's simply how markets work.

BTW, anybody can form a corporation and fill a need in the marketplace. It's how it works. That's actually how most companies start. It's usually later that the greedy people get involved and start trying to bilk the consumer.

[BobbyMike]

Originally posted by JimmieD
...

Better be careful now, 'cause I've stepped over the line of social acceptability and may perchance offend. Well, like it or not, believe it or reject it but the truth remains to be seen and oh so painfully clearly. 'Fill 'er up there, buddy!" or has it degenerated far enough that you even pump your own? Yes, we pump our own selves up and pay the price, and that daily and continually.

Actually I think we're talking about the same things, I'm just more optimistic because I think that the Fellow who caused that book to be written can turn any evil to good, and will.
You've definitely not offended me, I enjoy reading the various viewpoints here, and the FREE exchange of them.

God Bless!

[JimmieD]

Hi BobbyMike,

I hear what you're saying, but have to take a peek at who is saying it. You certainly must know that your family is by far the exception rather than the common item. The number of people who have drop-kicked their TV through the goal posts [I preferred to dispatch mine with a well placed hollow point] into eternity are less than few. The number of kids that would make sober and rational decisions based on logical deductions may be fewer than the number of non-TV-owners!

I for one have no time for conspiracy theories, which I stated at the outset of my first post in that vein. However, I am not a blithering idiot drooling on myself either. My life has been focused on machines and my skills were based in seeing mechanical relationships between one part and another, while maintaining the ability to comprehend the complete machine in operation. Therefore whenever I see a 'Machine' of any sort I naturally analyze its workings and complexities to better understand its operations and functions and purpose. I see a Machine in these topics addressed here.

You are obviously possessed of a much above average and especially clear thinking mind. You're in the minority again, as you probably know. Thinking and logical deduction are now being removed from school curriculums in favor of responding to feelings of the moment. Solid benchmarks of behavior are now replaced with whatever one's emotions, lusts or whims of the moment happen to be. "Hey, it's all about me, isn't it?" Children, very young children, are currently being taught in school how to do things and accept those things that when described here would get my posts deleted from this same forum!

People are now conditioned to respond to short sound bites, convincing half-truths, glitz and glitter and whatever peaks their emotions right here, right now. Do yourself a favor and go spend an evening watching TV one night. If you've been way for awhile you may be shocked to say the least. I tune in about once every 6 months or so, and am continually amazed at how much farther society has slipped since the last time I looked, and at just what people are willing to swallow with their nightly diet of sheer idiocy, carefully scripted for someone else's profit.

The wise man says, "Know your enemy."

[JimmieD]

This is getting humorous on my side: every time I take a minute to post a reply you or someone else is also feverishly pecking away at the keys ha haha!

No, don't be confused: I am a dyed in the Wool Capitalist in the extreme. I believe in business, small personal business, corporate business and BIG business, 'cause that's a key component of what made America the greatest nation on earth.

I have been approached numerous times by clerks in several stores, offering me assistance simply because I am taking such an extrarodinarily long time to figure out the relative 'value' available between competing products. Problem is, most are made in China today so value is no longer a key consideration in the traditional sense.

What cranks me up is the deceitful scheming behind closed doors at the carefully planned expense of others. Maybe that's because I've been one of those behind those same corporate doors, doing the scheming in the past! We cashed out fatly to say the least. Only later did I become a man with morals and ethics. I have been intimately involved with some of the largest corporations in the world, and with governments, and have personally devised and co-operated in plans to selfishly and cleverly remove resources from the coffers of others in order to fatten our own. Been there.....but far more gladdened to be here in Truth now.

[MoparNorm]

...when we can disagree without being disagreeable, that is the entire point of this country! Good job both of you!
By the Way, paid $2.51 for diesel today, that pipeline is filling up again....= )
MN

[JimmieD]

Yes, Norm, I appreciated BobbyMike's most gentlemanly method of disagreeing while also making his point! Very nice.

I'm personally trying to learn from my past inappropriate behaviors on the forum. I flew off at two different people who responded to posts I had made, then found out quickly that neither one intended any direct offense at all! I might have caused a bit of a ruckus over at another forum you frequent ha haha?

Live and learn, then hope to live long enough after that to apply what we've learned! :~ )

[Dana Singsaas]

I was under the impression that a lot... a LOT of diesel is fueling our vehicles over in the sand. Less here, more there for their effort.

Am I way off here?...

Dana

[Hawk]

Just back in Aug. my local area had its county fair. 99% of all the diesels (even the tractor pullers) were running the Bio-Diesel. Mind you not mixed, but full tanks of Bio-Diesel.

Now here is a pic of them pulling, they did not have any issues doing full pulls and some of the drivers are not having 100% bio-Diesel in all their equipment on the farms.

[Hawk]

Here he is same driver almost at Full Pull

[Hawk]

here is the end of the run:

[MoparNorm]

Originally posted by Dana Singsaas
I was under the impression that a lot... a LOT of diesel is fueling our vehicles over in the sand. Less here, more there for their effort.

Am I way off here?...

Dana

It's hard to say how far off you are, maybe 72' x 42'???
You are correct that all military vehicles run 'multi use' fuels, that was one reason that the M37 finally got put out to pasture, it complicates logistics to have to supply two fuels. Now they just carry diesel and everything including the turbines can run it.
As for where it comes from, I don't know! I wouldn't think that they ship it from here, but maybe? It would make more sense to refine it there, but...??? Either way it probably does contribute to the overall mix of fuel consumption.
MN (dreaming of 72x42)

[MoparNorm]

Originally posted by Hawk
here is the end of the run:

That Bio runs a LOT cleaner...... = )
Ha!ha! Just kidding!

I hear that a lot of folks are using B99, the 1% petro fuel allows them to recieve full tax credits.
Because of emission rules, every pump in CA dispenses B5 for both gasoline and diesel, all Chrysler Products come from the factory with B5 in the tank. I think Cummins allows B15 use and lower to be covered by warantee.
MN

[BobbyMike]

Originally posted by JimmieD
Yes, Norm, I appreciated BobbyMike's most gentlemanly method of disagreeing while also making his point! Very nice.

I'm personally trying to learn from my past inappropriate behaviors on the forum. I flew off at two different people who responded to posts I had made, then found out quickly that neither one intended any direct offense at all! I might have caused a bit of a ruckus over at another forum you frequent ha haha?

Live and learn, then hope to live long enough after that to apply what we've learned! :~ )

All learned behavior. I got myself chased off my post at Camp David (part of the Marine Security detachment there) by "speaking freely" to my commanding officer. Led to my loss of a Presidential Service Badge. Lesson noted - I've tried to be less judgemental and argumentative with others. Life, strangely enough, seems to be more enjoyable now.

[Hawk]

any Diesel under that much of a load is going to look like a bad fire smoke cloud.

But under normal op. its clear as a bell and does not smell the same as normal Diesel out the tail pipes.

[JimmieD]

Originally posted by Dana Singsaas
I was under the impression that a lot... a LOT of diesel is fueling our vehicles over in the sand. Less here, more there for their effort.

Am I way off here?...

Dana

Ummmm.....as far as I know there's probably at least a barely adequate supply of diesel over there, Dana. That is, it's not like they're draining the tanks at our local Shell station and shipping it back. What'ya think?

Oooopppss, there I go being offensive again, and forgetting that everything bad except hair days is George W. Bush's fault?

[JimmieD]

Originally posted by Hawk
any Diesel under that much of a load is going to look like a bad fire smoke cloud.

But under normal op. its clear as a bell and does not smell the same as normal Diesel out the tail pipes.

Okay, okay, but remember those things that were around years ago, offered by a joker, where you put it up to your eye and looked in and saw the little picture, then when it's pulled away there's a black ring around your eye?

Somehow I just got a hilarious picture of our dear Hawk down on all fours sniffing diesel pipes and coming back up with a grin on his face, and a big black ring around his nose.... [Sorry Hawk, I couldn't resist!]

JimmieD

[Dana Singsaas]

I didn't mean they're buying the diesel at your local Casey's and shipping it over in empty 2 liter Diet Pepsi bottles. It goes back to that "supply and demand" thing. If they're producing it there and LEAVING it/using it there, there's less to ship elsewhere... get it?

Again, I just know those boys (AND Women! Don't want to get flamed for sexist remarks! : ) are using a lot of fuel over there.

And YES - I do blame G.W.B. for my bad hair days!! (...I mean, what little hair I still have... I've got to blame it on someone... : )

[JimmieD]

Dana:

LOL ha hahaha!

JimmieD

[Doc Dave]

I have been doing a little research on this issue.
It is alledged that the reason that diesel is high is that now, in Europe and Asia, diesel is really being pushed in car making more than gas engines, and that with their increasing number of vehicles, that those two factors are effecting supply.
Antoher interesting note is that supposedly after Katrina, the Europeans "helped out" by diverting some of the gasoline reserves for awhile to help the U.S. They did not free up any of their diesel reserves though.

[MoparNorm]

$2.47 a gallon last night and still going down. I'd be willing to bet that most of the pre-holliday shipping has been completed, it's all a part of the supply/demand equasion. Heating oil can easily be converted to #2 at the refinery, I'm pretty sure that dire predictions of a cold winter put a LOT of #2 in the pipeline. Here in the west we are running way behind normal for rain, snow and temperatures are in the mid to high 70's along the West Coast. In SoCal we were in the low nineties to high 80's just last week, so far winter is a bust and that has to translate into excess supply of #2, at the moment.
MN