Florescent lights for shop use...

[Gordon Maney]

I have used florescent lights in my shop for years, and some of the fixtures are getting to be in bad shape. There are some very low cost fixtures available, and I have purchased them in the past. It seems in recent years that the quality of these has declined, marked by the inability to get a tube in some of them, due to how the sheet metal housing positions the tube holders.

My question is this: Do you believe there are higher cost, commercial grade florescent fixtures that are much better to buy, in terms of quality and durability, or do you think they are all about the same, and just buy the cheap ones? What do you think?

Thanks...

[MoparNorm]

Hi Gordon,
It is I, your personal contractor here. ha!ha!

It all depends upon the height of your ceiling. If you have a low ceiling, 8' to 9', then flouresecent lighting is fine and more powerful lights will just give you more heat and not much more illumination.

However if you have a mid to high ceiling, 10' and above (the idea shop height being 14' to 16' feet min.) then you should consider a HID lamp. They can produce great amounts of light and depending upon whether you choose mercury or sodium you can actually change the "color" of the light and increase visibility without increasing the number of lights. Here is a little info I found this AM.
http://www.commlamp.com/productInfo/HID.asp

As far as higher dollar flourescents fixtures, save your money, the output is governed by the type of lamp that you install in the fixture, as long as the ballast and starters are up to the task, you can use almost any fixture, the lamps vary greatly in output depending upon whether they are T-lamps, cool white, brite white, etc. look at the lamps and use the coresponding lamp to fit your application.

Hope this helps.
MN

[Gordon Maney]

Thank you.... my ceiling is 11 feet high.

All of those lights you mention are slow starts, aren't they? You don't just flip the switch and have light, they have to come up?

[MoparNorm]

I haven't noticed,...but then again...I'm a slow starter too! ha!
Yes, some are although in my fever induced state I can't keep them straight. Some take a few moments, not more than 5-10 seconds to ramp up, most newer styles come on immediately but do not reach full intensity for a minute or so.
11' is right on the borderline where flourescents start to lose their effectiveness.
I'll do some more digging after my nap!
MN

[Joe Cimoch]

How are the HID lamps in cold weather? I like the fluorescent because I have low ceilings, but they don't perform well in the winter, mine tend to flicker a lot.

[MoparNorm]

Gordon,
Metal Halide are the slow starters. Ge claims to have 50% quicker starting lamps (whatever that may mean!) Check out their info here;
http://www.gelighting.com/na/specoem/hid.html

I'll dig up what I have on fluoresents also. (such as spelling?) ha!ha!
MN

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Joe Cimoch
How are the HID lamps in cold weather? I like the fluorescent because I have low ceilings, but they don't perform well in the winter, mine tend to flicker a lot.

Joe, I am with you on the cold weather symptoms. In fact, in winter I have often gone to incandescent lights for those times when you are just going out to the building to get something.

[MoparNorm]

Gordon,
The isn't much out there in a high output fluorescent, the top lighting output for a 4' lamp is the F40CW (not the most energy efficient but the brightest) Energt efficient T8 lamps are about 92% of that light output.
8' lamp, max brightness is a F96CW/40.

Joe, flickering is cause by poor quality tequila, uh never mind wrong post, normally it is an indication of a failing ballast, ballasts can be replaced faily easily, are available at Lowes or Depot and be sure to TURN OFF THE POWER first!
MN

[Terry Newton]

Yea, be SURE and turn off the power first. :)

[Joe Cimoch]

You guys must live in a temperate climate, or more likely have heated garages.

[MoparNorm]

Joe,

Is it only in the winter, that the lights flicker? It could be a problem with your incoming current? The ballast get very hot, it's hard to think that the cold air would do anything to them except IMPROVE the performance. They normally go bad because they break down under the heat load over time.

If the lamps are getting black on the ends but still work while flickering they are probably due for replacement.

Check the ballast and make sure that the wattage is compatible with the lamp wattage, there are several types of ballasts and lamps that all fit into the same fixture and are 120v, but not really compatible. The ballasts need to be matched to the lamps. (if you want really bright lamps that last 25 minutes, install 60 watt ballasts and use 30 watt lamps!) The ballast should say right on them "for two 40 watt F40CW lamps".

MN

[Joe Cimoch]

Its common in cold area to see the flicker. I searced around and found that there are special "cold weather ballasts" to solve the problem.
From http://www.lightsearch.com/resources/lightguides/environments.html

I like learning new stuff!!!

Areas That Experience Abnormal Temperatures

The starting and operation of fluorescent and high-intensity discharge (HID) lighting systems can be affected by abnormal temperatures.

In low-temperature environments such as refrigerated areas, fluorescent lamps can experience adverse performance such as "fluttering," reduced light output and difficulty starting by the ballast. In such applications, enclosed fixtures, special "cold weather" fluorescent lamps and/or jacketed lamps can help ensure reliable performance; in addition, fixtures can be located a suitable distance from cold-air source units.

Cold weather ballasts that can start the lamps at temperatures below 0°F should be specified for applications where the ambient temperature is expected to be below 50°F. Cold weather electronic and magnetic ballasts can be specified for HO and VHO lamps that can start them at temperatures as low as -20°F.

See the Table below for minimum starting temperatures for a variety of fluorescent ballasts. HID lamps can start in a wide range of ambient temperatures.



Table. Minimum Starting Temperatures for Typical Fluorescent Ballasts

Ballast
Typical Minimum Starting Temperature


Magnetic w/T8 lamps
+50°F

Magnetic w/standard T12 lamps
+50°F, 0°F

Magnetic w/energy-saving T12 lamps
+60°F

Magnetic w/HO or VHO T12 lamps
+50°F, 0°F, -20°F

Hybrid* w/standard T12 or T8 lamps
+50°F

Hybrid w/energy-saving T12 lamps
+60°F

Electronic w/2, 3 & 4 ft. T8 lamps
+50°F, 0°F

Electronic w/standard T12 lamps
+50°F, 0°F

Electronic w/energy-saving lamps
+60°F

Electronic w/8 ft. "Slimline" T8 lamps
+50°F

Electronic w/HO T12 lamps
+50°F, 0°F, -20°F




*Also called a cathode cut-out ballast




In areas experiencing high ambient temperatures, the ballast can overheat. Class P ballasts contain a thermal protection device that disconnects the ballast from the power source if it begins to overheat. The ballast then cools until an automatic resetter reconnects it to the power supply. If the overheating is not corrected, the process, called "cycling," will repeat itself. In addition, if the temperatures are high enough, ballast life could be shortened and light output reduced.

Fixtures in areas experiencing high ambient temperatures should be well-ventilated. In such fixtures, the heat produced by the lamps generates convection currents that remove the heat. Special HID ballasts can be specified that are designed to operate under high ambient temperatures, or the ballast can be located at a remote location (the distance subject to limitations).

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Joe Cimoch
You guys must live in a temperate climate, or more likely have heated garages.

No, actually it can get very cold here in Iowa; there can be quite a bit of below zero time in a winter. Although, it is unusual for it to get below 10 degrees below zero, fahrenheit, very often. Perhaps once or twice in the winter, and then only overnight.

When it is any lower than about +15 degrees F, I can forget the idea of getting any useful light from those fixtures. I do have a hanging propane heater, but I don't run it that much.

The idea of good lighting that is not affected by low temperature is appealing, but I am uncertain about purchase price and operating costs of some of this more exotic stuff. Plus, I only have about 12 inches between my ceiling and the top of my jib crane that swings an 18 foot arc. So fixture height issues may exist.

[MoparNorm]

Gordon,
Joe was refering to Terry and I, he is also in a cold weather climate. Here in SoCal it gets cold, very cold,...sometimes nearly down to 70 degrees! ha!ha!

Joe, great information about those ballasts! We don't see those out here, possibly in the local mountains, but not down here. That is good to know. Our greatest problem here is keeping them cool, so aparently standard ballast must have an operating range of 50F to 90F and that is it. Above or below that range you get flicker. Looks like I'll be using HID in the new shop!

[Terry Newton]

That is a beautiful barn. I bet it cost a billion dollars to build one like that in CA. :)

[MoparNorm]

Thanks Terry!
Actually I'm hoping that I can build it for a little less than that! (I'm a carpenter by trade and MoparTina works real cheap! ha!ha!)

Why are barns red? I read somewhere, years ago, that red was the easiest color to make from scratch on a farm, and since there weren't many Standard Brands paint stores around in the 1750's, I think it just caught on. Now, if you travel around the country, I see many barns in the upper midwest and PA that are white. Out here in the West, green or unpainted seems to be right up there with red. Todays barns are more than likely painted red as a salute to tradition, and those first homemade red painted barns.
I still haven't decided what color to use, but red is up there near the top.
MoparNorm

[HWooldridge]

I use fluorescents for general lighting but you can also mount portable, high intensity work lights on a permanent box. I have a couple mounted to the outside of the shop for working at night and they are activated by a regular switch. However, they do put out a lot of heat and don't like vibration so take care where you place them. I'm not talking about conventional floodlamps but the rectangular halogens that Home Depot and Lowe's sell.

[MoparNorm]

Those 300 and 500 watt lights will really make your meter spin!
You can get almost the same light quality (because of the color range) with a lot less heat and cost by using HID lights.
But I've had to use the same arrangment out of necessity a few times.
MN

[Bruce]

This picture is from Feburary 2000, Semi restored at the time, it is fnished now. New England Bank Barn, circa 1899, white field, green trim and green porcilinized metal roof.
I don't know why it didn't load the attachment, I will add it to my webshots page, m37bruce, check it out.

http://community.webshots.com/user/m37bruce

[MoparNorm]

Thanks Bruce,
Put the link here when you get the photo up.
MN

[Terry Newton]

I read an article some time ago that said the ingredients to make read paint last century were cheaper than the ingredients for white paint.

Therefore, in order to save money, most barns were red, and only the houses were white. However, if you really had money, then both were white.

That sounds like a logical way for the thing to get started. To me, anyway.

[Joe Cimoch]

Found this on the 'net:

Barns were originally painted red because back in pioneer days there wasn't much choice. Farmers used to make their own mixture, consisting of a nauseating blend of skim milk, lime, linseed oil, and iron oxide, better known as rust.

"Hmm," said the anonymous inventor of this concoction, "this is not the milkshake I hoped it would be. But it might make a pretty good paint."

[MoparNorm]

....The Dairy Queen logo used to be a red barn?? ha!ha!
MN

[Bruce]

Hey Norm,
I am not sure if this will work or not? This is the one we restored in 1999, after some tree damage. It was built approximately 1899. The builder friend that helped me, stated that it would be less expensive to build a new one, maybe even 2 barns.
BTW, it is almost 6,000 sq. feet.
Apparently this file is to big as well, I'll try resizing it tomorrow.
Later,

[MoparNorm]

Hi Bruce,
I'll look forward to seeing that picture!
MN

[Guy_NH]

Since we are on the subject of lighting, how many would you install?

I have a (2) car garage under my ranch house. The ceiling is about 7' (ya, I know, no lift). :( It is 22' wide x 24 ' deep, so each bay is 11' x 24'. I was considering putting in either (6) single bulb 4' florencent lights in each bay or (4) double bulb. Is this not enough or too much? I want to be able to work on projects without always trying to get of shadows...

thanks for any advice...... Guy(NH)

[Gordon Maney]

I practice the simple minded attitude that you can't have too much light, particularly for certain activities. I think I would put in six of the double tube, 48" long fixtures. They are very low in cost, too.

Keep in mind there may be a bench area that you want well lighted, and I think that light falls outside of your initial calculations. The bench would deserve its own fixture, so you were not casting a shadow on your work.

You can always have several, separately switched circuits so you don't have to run all of the lights at once, if you don't need or want to..... say, half on each of two switches, or two each on three switches. None of the necessary materials cost much.

[Bruce]

Originally posted by MoparNorm
Hi Bruce,
I'll look forward to seeing that picture!
MN
Hey Norm,
Did you check out the barn, I finally got a few pictures of it on my webshots page?
TTYL,

[MoparNorm]

Hi Bruce,
That looks pretty nice. Is there a loft above, or is it open?
Thanks fo rposting the pictures.
MN

[Bruce]

Hey Norm,
The basement is 1500 sg. ft. and contains a 8 hole milking parlor, the main floor has five bays, a secure room for ?? and a main hall, the loft has a trolly system for hay, my father-inlaw used to work here in the summer and remembers using mule power along with the trolly to store hay. The coupla used to have a locking panel on one side and 5 glass panels, we used those lovured panels, 3 guesses as to what they are made? Plastic grocery bags!!
I will try and get some interior shots on a sunny day.
TTYL,

[MoparNorm]

Cool!
It doesn't look that big in the photos! (that may be the same problem I have with photo dating services...uh never mind! ha!ha!)
Thanks for the info!
MN

[49 T&C]

I just found this site and specifically, this post - really hits home. I have a 40' X 54' garage with a 14' ceiling. I have 2 rows - 4', 2-tube flourscents. Its not enough light!!! Thanks to this thread, I'll be looking into the HID lights. Do they require any special (heat resistant) box or anything?

Thanks,
Chuck

[MoparNorm]

Nothing special is needed, except to give proper clearance for the lights. They come with various types of lens, etc. for different types of applications.
MN

[49 T&C]

How 'bout reflectors ?? needed?

Thanks,
49T&C

66 Townie
74 Duster
72 scamp
49 T&C

[MoparNorm]

The reflectors are not required, but they certainly help focus the light where it can be most used. The 14' ceiling is not that high where reflectors would really be required. Normally you'd use them at 20' or higher. Go to the W.W. Grainger site to get an idea of the options. Not the most inexpensive source but they have good general data with the lighting specs. Then also visit the GE web site and Lithonia. All will give you a better overview of the types and uses.
MN

[49 T&C]

Thanks...

EXACTLY what I needed,