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Jonas Smith
09-14-2004, 10:39 PM
I found a guy in CA who is selling Cummins 4BT Bread truck Cutouts for $1300. This is the engine complete from Radiator to Bellhousing, with all accessories. I did'nt get the transmission with mine because it was a turbo 400. (Auto's are bad, right, Gordon? And besides, I'm hoping I can adapt a NP 435 to the back of it.)

I cant reccomend the fellow yet as my engine has'nt shown up, but when it does and if all is in good order, I'll let you know.

P.S. He'll sell a complete Frito lay truck for $2900.

Jonas

Bill in MI
09-15-2004, 09:16 PM
Jonas,

Let us know or email me on the contact if it works out I'm thinking of the same conversion and would appreciate a heads up on a source.
Bill in MI

Chris Olson
09-16-2004, 02:32 AM
Jonas.. I would also be interested in the contact info for the 4BT engines

CGarbee
09-18-2004, 12:58 AM
While you are waiting on Jonas to evaluate his purchase and his supplier...

I purchased my 4BT from The Foote in Norfolk, Mass. Call and ask for Paul or Bryon Kass at 150 Mechanic St. Foxboro, MA 02035, 508-543-9068 v/fax or http://www.enginecom.com/cd.htm They have a large assortment of takeout diesels, transmissions and other parts from all sizes and makes of light to heavy trucks.

I've heard good reviews about The Diesel Depot (also known as Avant Salvage). They are located in middle Georgia - Sandersville to be exact. The phone number is 1-800-553-8192. For small engines (6.2, 6.5, 4bt, etc) ask for Jamie Avant - for big truck stuff ask for Benny (Jamie's dad). 219 Waco Dr. or P.O. Box 228, Sandersville, GA 31082 E-mail at: avasalv@mylink.net

I've also heard good reviews about Neosho Truck Parts in Neosho WI, about an hour westnorthwest of Milwaukee,
920-625-3261, ask for Mark. He, under contract, junks out all the Frito delivery trucks (at least for the midwest) all of which have 4BT's or 4BTA's.

Bill in MI
09-19-2004, 09:21 PM
Thanks Mr. Gabee. I had forgotten about your site.

Bill in MI

38146
11-26-2004, 11:32 PM
What's happening on the Frito Lay engine swap?How many horse power is that rated at?Thanks Dan djh46 @ juno.com

Warren
12-11-2004, 02:07 PM
Would a Chevy SM465 Transmission work with a Cummins 4TB motor?

Jonas Smith
12-11-2004, 02:39 PM
You can get a Cummins 4BT with a SM465 already installed out of a bread truck. Look for a Chevy P30 van. The thing that I dont like about the set up is that that the engine is canted 10 deg. off center. So it's like a slant 4 diesel engine.
I dont know why they did it that way?
I figure with the spicer 3053 transmission I can get the overdrive gear that I will want with the extra torque of the Cummins.
With a direct final drive, 4.88 gear ratio, and 38" tires, at 60MPH your RPM is just under 2600 rpm. I think you want to have it around 1800 or 2000 RPM, and the 27% over drive will put it a 1850 RPM at 60 MPH.
I'm basing that on what my 6BTA likes in a full size, 6500 lb truck. I have disc brakes in the Power Wagon already, but I'm just not sure I want to be doing 70 MPH in a '53 Power Wagon....

Charles Talbert
12-11-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Jonas Smith
You can get a Cummins 4BT with a SM465 already installed out of a bread truck. Look for a Chevy P30 van. The thing that I dont like about the set up is that that the engine is canted 10 deg. off center. So it's like a slant 4 diesel engine.
I dont know why they did it that way?
I figure with the spicer 3053 transmission I can get the overdrive gear that I will want with the extra torque of the Cummins.
With a direct final drive, 4.88 gear ratio, and 38" tires, at 60MPH your RPM is just under 2600 rpm. I think you want to have it around 1800 or 2000 RPM, and the 27% over drive will put it a 1850 RPM at 60 MPH.
I'm basing that on what my 6BTA likes in a full size, 6500 lb truck. I have disc brakes in the Power Wagon already, but I'm just not sure I want to be doing 70 MPH in a '53 Power Wagon....

A Cummins 4BTA turns 2,000 RPM at 55MPH using the 3053A trans. & 4.89 ratio diff. gearing.

climer97007
07-18-2005, 08:09 PM
I just bought a brand spanking new Cummins 3.9L ISB170 off of eBay just last week. It is targeted for a 1957 Dodge Power Wagon truck. I want to mate it to an NV4500 5 speed. But, I am not having much luck figuring out what kind of Bell Housing will allow this to happen for under $1200 from Cummins. Does anyone know of a used Bell Housing I can get for this? It needs to have an SAE 3 pattern on the motor, and the NV4500 pattern for the transmission. I have not bought the NV4500 yet, because I am not sure what input shaft to get, Chevy or Dodge. And I am still wonderiong about using the long 2WD output of the Dodge, or the shorter Chevy output. I am trying to avoid having to use adaptors. Any one done this yet? You can email me at work at eugene.j.climer@tek.com or call me at 503-627-5774. Thanks!

mcinfantry
08-06-2005, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Charles Talbert
A Cummins 4BTA turns 2,000 RPM at 55MPH using the 3053A trans. & 4.89 ratio diff. gearing.

thats with 38" tires. 35" tires is 2200rpm

FireMarshal3311
08-18-2005, 08:59 AM
since a 4bt is just a 4 cyl version of the 6bt in the dodges, shouldn't a factory bellhousing out of a 94-01 dodge with nv4500 work? also, if it does try, www.car-part.com, they are good for locating stuff in decent junk yards.

mcinfantry
08-18-2005, 11:27 AM
thats what i did on the belhousing, etc

The Rage
01-23-2006, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by CGarbee

I've heard good reviews about The Diesel Depot (also known as Avant Salvage). They are located in middle Georgia - Sandersville to be exact. The phone number is 1-800-553-8192. For small engines (6.2, 6.5, 4bt, etc) ask for Jamie Avant - for big truck stuff ask for Benny (Jamie's dad). 219 Waco Dr. or P.O. Box 228, Sandersville, GA 31082 E-mail at: avasalv@mylink.netI.

New user here. DARN!. That's EXACTLY the type of swap I've been thinking of how to do on another non-Dodge application as well. I've also got a decent 1976 PW project I'm looking at that would be perfect for such a swap.

Question though, before I call, can you give me/us a hint on how much these guys in Mid-Georgia would want for a cash-and-carry 4BT or 4BTA?. I've got a few folks over here in South Carolina that only want 500 bux or less for decent running 94 and earlier 6BT.

Thanks and apologize ahead of time for just jumpin' in here.

Bryan

mcinfantry
01-23-2006, 06:41 PM
2500 for a 4bt

500 for a 12valve? buy it!

The Rage
01-23-2006, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by mcinfantry
2500 for a 4bt

500 for a 12valve? buy it!

Actually 2500 seems a bit high for a mill with lotza miles on it you know?. The "other" project (can I mention it here?) is a 1980 Chevy C-10 former crap diesel factory converted to a 350 Olds V8...Good ole' motor. BUT horrific mpg running in front of a Turbo 350 and a 4:11 gear (10mpg at BEST!)....I could probably get away with the T-350 BUT if the Frito Lay Vans are running Chevy T-400's, I'd have to swap it anyway to make it fit..(Just makes more sense that way)..Definately a T-400 if I ran the Cummings 6..Too much torque I believe for a Turbo 350 maybe If I wanted OD, I'd rather convert to manual tranny/clutch than pay the extra to have a decent R-700 built to manage the torque.

The PW I'm looking at, I stand corrected..It's a '79...The only thing I worry about is the fuel tank lift pump that gave all the MOPAR owners fits in the earlier cummings-equipped trucks. What's the work-around for that reliability issue?..Third-party pump?

Thanks for the reply...BTW, if I'm going to spend 2500 bux for a mill alone, I'd rather go ahead and buy the entire bread/cornchip truck for 2900 you know?. There's been times I could've used something like that for hauling stuff.

Bryan

MoparNorm
01-25-2006, 09:42 PM
Good Post Bryan!
MN

warlock440
01-26-2006, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by The Rage

The PW I'm looking at, I stand corrected..It's a '79...The only thing I worry about is the fuel tank lift pump that gave all the MOPAR owners fits in the earlier cummings-equipped trucks. What's the work-around for that reliability issue?..Third-party pump?

Bryan

What problems did they have with the early lift pumps?? I have both a 93 and a 94 and have not had anyproblems with the lift pumps.. The only Dodges I have heard of having problems with lift pumps are the 98 and up so can you enlighten me on the early problems??

The Rage
01-26-2006, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by MoparNorm
Good Post Bryan!
MN

Well, thank you. BTW, I have met a new friend on Ebay from Shelby, NC that used to work on the 4ATs and 4BTs fpr a bread company. He said an amazingly quick engine for a 4-bangin' diesel. I didn't think to ask what the rear end ratio might've been though as top speed on a bread truck, mostly used for urban and suburban deliveries, was probably running a Big Mama ratio. What would you think?. 4:89 or so maybe? Probably worked as a governor for top speed too. I do know the trolley replicas that roll around Columbia can't do over 48 mph because they're running a 5 something rear end or so I was told.

Without having seen one of the manual trannies out of a bread box, how BIG are they and did they go granny low to 4 straight (Like a Ford), 4 speed OD, or 5 speed od. Also, how about a 2-speed rear end OR are we getting out of hand there with a C-10 <grin>?

Obviously, I want the Dodge to be my mud truck. I probably wouldn't mind going with a big rear end as possible if the price wasn't too outrageous seeing as street use would be very limited. The Chevy would be the daily trash truck/usual driver UNLESS someone wants to sell/give me a decent Dodge Stepside as a possible transplantee?

The Rage
01-26-2006, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by warlock440
What problems did they have with the early lift pumps?? I have both a 93 and a 94 and have not had anyproblems with the lift pumps.. The only Dodges I have heard of having problems with lift pumps are the 98 and up so can you enlighten me on the early problems??

Acquaintance of mine had trouble with his '94 and I've heard about some of the real early, old design (90, 91) having probs too. BUT if you say they're more reliable than the 98's, then I say hooray!.

BTW, answer me this dumb question. Was a lift pump always a necessity with the 6bt and why not with the 4bt?.

If I can find a 6 to go in either project, I'm happy BUT if the 4 will suffice at the rite price, well, then I'll go the reliable, albeit slightly slower route with the 4bt.

Is there a 3rd party pump that solved the problems/improved performance though for the 6bt? Thanks

rlmeskimen
06-12-2006, 06:14 AM
Afternoon, I just ran into this thread doing some research on 4bt's and thought I would drop my two cents on the lift pump issue.

1988-1993 12V Cummins used the VE6 Rotary injection pump. I don't know a lot about this pump except that it was difficult to tweak and make a ton of power but don't think it was unreliable.

1994-1998 12V Cummins used the P7100 Inline injection pump. It was purely a mechanical injection pump and did not use or require a second pump to "lift" the fuel from the tank to the injection pump. The P7100 is a rather bullet proof pump and I have heard of very few issues with this pump.

1998-2002 24V Cummins utilized the VP44 injection pump. This pump used an ECM to control the pump and injectors. These models used a Carter "lift" pump to get fuel at 5-7 PSI from the tank to the injection pump. This pump was designed to be a pusher pump but was instead attached to the engine thus there were issues as it was in a suction type setup. Issues seam to be more common on the long bed quad cab truck (not sure there was any statistical significance) so some speculate that the extra bit of cab was enough to tax the pump. This in and of itself was not the issue as Dodge warrantied the pump to 100K and it was around $100 to replace after warranty. The larger issue was the VP44 could compensate for the weak lift pump once it died but only for so long and then it would die. If you were beyond the warranty you were on the hook for the lift pump and the additional VP44 which ran you a cool $1300!

There were numerous ways to fix this and many folks do after the warranty is up. Usually, the pump it moved to the rear by the tank or you use an aftermarket setup (FASS is one) and rendered it a moot issue. In the meantime, the hot ticket was to mount a fuel pressure monitor gauge in between the lift pump and the injection pump to monitor pressure. It was obvious when the lift pump would go with a gauge. There are a couple of easy points to monitor from.

That's about all I know about that issue. For anything and everything you want to know about these engines and trucks goto www.turbodieselregister.com (http://www.turbodieselregister.com) . Hope this helps some.

Ryan Meskimen

JimmieD
06-12-2006, 10:03 AM
The Walbro 3951 or 3952 [double check those numbers, guys, it's from memory] is a fuel-cooled gear-rotor pump and quite bulletproof. Using it in a little old 6BT is like using a fire truck pump to take a shower with, meaning it's WAY OVER pumping power for the job. That's good, 'cause it means they last for years and years with zero problems. If you use the smaller one, I think it's 3951, for a 4 BT it's prefect and major overkill for ANY of your fuel needs. Don't try to use the Holley 'Blue' pump because it's made for gasoline, and not the heavier diesel fuel. Can't take the load.

If at all possible use the early engines without the IC electrical garbage and ECM, as it's nothing but headaches. You can still bomb the early engines, 4BT or 6BT and get all the power you'll ever need. Easy to get 250 hp and 500+ ft lbs torque from a 4BT!! 175-200 hp is a better number to shoot for reliability wise.

You can't go by the Frito Lays rear end ratios 'cause they have huge tires on them, 19-20 inch wheels, so it throws the numbers off when running 33's to 38's. Usually somewhere between 4.89 and 4.10 is a good ratio, depending on the tranny you use.

The TH400 was hard pressed to handle even the 4BT and that's one of the main problems that caused so many of these vans to be retired: not worth the money to continuously repair, or the money to swap in a better tranny.

FAR BETTER for you to score an NV-4500 DODGE tranny, bellhousing adapter and bellhousing with hydraulic clutch. NV-4500 has granny low, good ratios, and a 27% overdrive in 5th. You got your grunt, plus drivability, PLUS OVERDRIVE for good mileage! Not only that, but FULL SYNCHRO IN ALL GEARS INCLUDING REVERSE HA HAHA!

Second choice is the SM465 4 speed, but not for me.....

Extra attention to details of fuel filtration is mandatory, and also to an adequate [or Walbro overkill] lift pump with a 4BT. That's about all those 'little' engines want and otherwise they run and run and run. Use a 6BT bellhousing adapter, bellhousing, flywheel, clutch etc. as it bolts right on and you have far more clutch than the 4BT will ever need.

JimmieD

Gordon Maney
06-12-2006, 12:50 PM
Well, thank you. BTW, I have met a new friend on Ebay from Shelby, NC that used to work on the 4ATs and 4BTs fpr a bread company. He said an amazingly quick engine for a 4-bangin' diesel. I didn't think to ask what the rear end ratio might've been though as top speed on a bread truck, mostly used for urban and suburban deliveries, was probably running a Big Mama ratio. What would you think?. 4:89 or so maybe? Probably worked as a governor for top speed too. I do know the trolley replicas that roll around Columbia can't do over 48 mph because they're running a 5 something rear end or so I was told.

Without having seen one of the manual trannies out of a bread box, how BIG are they and did they go granny low to 4 straight (Like a Ford), 4 speed OD, or 5 speed od. Also, how about a 2-speed rear end OR are we getting out of hand there with a C-10 <grin>?

Obviously, I want the Dodge to be my mud truck. I probably wouldn't mind going with a big rear end as possible if the price wasn't too outrageous seeing as street use would be very limited. The Chevy would be the daily trash truck/usual driver UNLESS someone wants to sell/give me a decent Dodge Stepside as a possible transplantee?


What is a 4AT?

JimmieD
06-12-2006, 12:59 PM
The 'A' designation referes to 'Aftercooled'. Correctly 4B, naturally aspirated, 4BT, Turbocharged, and 4BTA Turbocharged and Aftercooled. Mostly the 4BTA are later engines, not necessarily desirable due to sometimes complex electronics. 4BT requires 1 [ONE!] wire and the 4BTA/IFC engines have a whole loom fool of foolishness. Many 4BTA are IFC with computer controls, but not all.

rlmeskimen
06-12-2006, 03:20 PM
Jimmie, thanks for clearing up the lift pumps on the 12V...I am not super familiar with them only the issues with the 24V ones as the two Rams I had fell in that category.

Ryan

Gordon Maney
06-12-2006, 11:07 PM
The 'A' designation referes to 'Aftercooled'. Correctly 4B, naturally aspirated, 4BT, Turbocharged, and 4BTA Turbocharged and Aftercooled. Mostly the 4BTA are later engines, not necessarily desirable due to sometimes complex electronics. 4BT requires 1 [ONE!] wire and the 4BTA/IFC engines have a whole loom fool of foolishness. Many 4BTA are IFC with computer controls, but not all.

What is IFC?

JimmieD
06-13-2006, 12:18 AM
Hi Gordon!

Not exactly sure what that acronym represents, but it refers to Bosch electronic fuel injection as opposed to on-demand Bosch mechanical fuel injection. As with any other component the increased perfection of fuel delivery comes with the price of complexity attached. The older Bosch system, though not elegant, is a Clydesdale for getting the job done simply and efficiently, with very easy tweaks to increase power. The later stuff is not very user friendly.

JimmieD

CGarbee
06-13-2006, 09:44 AM
What is a 4AT?

Not sure about a 4AT, but Cummins did produce a line of inline six cylinder engines based off an Onan design that they acquired along with Onan a few years back that was the 6AT3.4. Six cylinder, aftercooled, turbocharged, 3.4 liter. Had a higher rpm limit than the larger, newer, 4B/BT/BTA or 6B/BT/BTA engines but not as much low end torque. Was used in a lot of the smallest route vans as repowers for the Chevy 292 (or 296, whatever that inline six cylinder gas engine was...).

I know of a guy in GA with a M37 that has the Cummins 6AT in it backed by a SM465 (the GM transmission that was behind it in the bread truck), and it gets up and down the road alright with the 5.83 gears, but even he says that if it were to be done over, that he'd install a 4BT in order to get more low end... 6 AT3.4 runs 120hp@3600rpm...

Hope that this helps...

Gordon Maney
06-13-2006, 12:33 PM
Not sure about a 4AT, but Cummins did produce a line of inline six cylinder engines based off an Onan design that they acquired along with Onan a few years back that was the 6AT3.4. Six cylinder, aftercooled, turbocharged, 3.4 liter. Had a higher rpm limit than the larger, newer, 4B/BT/BTA or 6B/BT/BTA engines but not as much low end torque. Was used in a lot of the smallest route vans as repowers for the Chevy 292 (or 296, whatever that inline six cylinder gas engine was...).

I know of a guy in GA with a M37 that has the Cummins 6AT in it backed by a SM465 (the GM transmission that was behind it in the bread truck), and it gets up and down the road alright with the 5.83 gears, but even he says that if it were to be done over, that he'd install a 4BT in order to get more low end... 6 AT3.4 runs 120hp@3600rpm...

Hope that this helps...

You are saying that the 4BT produces more torque than the 6AT?

The Rage
06-13-2006, 06:32 PM
I'm still searching for a good 4BT source in South/North Carolina or Georgia. See bread trucks on auction but they're equipped with gas 350's. I would REALLY like to do as another poster did with my C10 He put a 4BT in a 1980 C10. I would change out the 4.10 rear end for atleast a 3.73 or if I could order one, a 3.55.


But then again, if someone knows of a good Fedex/Frito-Lay complete box truck already equipped for a reasonable price, let me know.

Bryan
Joanna, SC

JimmieD
06-13-2006, 08:25 PM
Rage, check this link:

http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?AuctionID=10462

Click on 'Lot Catalogue' in the box on the right. several coming up for bid near you 6/21/06

JimmieD

JimmieD
06-13-2006, 08:34 PM
Gordon, the 4BT's come in several stock configurations from about 76 hp up to 250 hp. The 4Bt found in most stepvans/breadtrucks is usually 105 hp and about 330 ft lbs torgue. The marine version is I think 250 hp and 550 ft lbs. You can 'bomb' a stepvan engine by causing it to take in more fuel, increasing trubocharger boost, installing water/methanol injection and several other go fast tricks.

These mods would obviously put more load on the engine, but they're very stout engines. Yes, you can get more power out of a modified 4BT than out of a stock 6BT, but 6BT can be heavily modified also. They're the same engine, identical, with one at 3.9L and the other at 5.9L. It's easy math to see that the 4BT can be built to produce 2/3 of whatever 'bombed' 6BT's produce. Not all that hard to exceed the power of a stock 6BT, but there's a penalty in reliability of course and going too far can porcupine rods through the side of the block or rip the head off.

I'll be bombing mine a little but staying conservative for long term reliability: maybe 175-200 hp and 450-550 ft lbs torque.

JimmieD

The Rage
06-14-2006, 10:36 AM
Rage, check this link:

http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?AuctionID=10462

Click on 'Lot Catalogue' in the box on the right. several coming up for bid near you 6/21/06

JimmieD

THANKS!!..That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for!. BTW, do these vans come with maintenance records and can you review them beforehand? (I'm waiting as we speak for my bidding permit to be approved). Everything will probably have a ton of miles on them BUT I'm just trying to find one that ain't been rode too hard and put away wet. Something that is or on the verge of being "wo' out".

JimmieD
06-14-2006, 10:59 AM
Yes, some come with complete maintenance records. Look in the Lot Catalog and click on an entry there. It wiil display the page for a single item for sale, and usually there's a contact number and name for more info. The guy's with the info have nothing to gain by giving false info as they're just Frito Lay employees, so they can tell you straight up what the condition of a truck is.

NO, THEY ARE NOT ALL HIGH MILEAGE BEATERS! I saw one that had 46K, another with 50K etc. like hardly even broken in for a million mile engine. The deal is they came with a piece of junk Chevy Turbo-400 trans made for passenger cars! Most of these trannies were toasted by 50K, replaced, toasted again and Frito Lay finally [wisely] gave up on them. Beware that some of them are very high mileage so some phone work is worth the bother. Understand that these are $6,500 engines at the least, so don't let a low mileage unit slip out of your fingers for a few more bucks......but you know how much you've got that you can spend. Don't know what the going price is on dovebid though.

The one I just bought and finally drove home yesterday has 146K on it and runs real sweet. I got it for $1050 at a local public auction. Don't tell me prayer doesn't work ha haha! No engine problems at all, and surprisingly powerful going up steep grades in the mountains. They're great engines!!!

I have more info if and when you need it.

JimmieD

The Rage
06-14-2006, 11:25 AM
What you paid is just about right for what I"m looking for. Say you had no probs going up the grade eh?. Where do you live if you don't mind asking?

The TH400's were alright for what they were designed for up and including 454 Big Blocks and all the Caddy's mills. But anything "dawged" won't hang together long, including Allisons. (from my skrewl bus driving daze I KNOW)
I figure for the average Joe though, who'd do more light to medium stuff, it'd take quite some time to rack up 50k miles. Would it be stupid to ask IF there were/are 4/5 speed versions of these 4BT box trucks?

Heck, I'd probably just buy one of those trucks for around here/hauling/towing stuff and just sell the C10. Go out and find me a stylish "short" bed 1966 to 1972 OR better yet, that 1951 Willys Pickup with the Corvette motor, Nova suspension, and TH350 eh?

My move up here would've been a breeze IF I'd had even a 15 foot box.

Thanks
Bryan
Joanna, SC

Charles Talbert
06-14-2006, 11:32 AM
Yes, some come with complete maintenance records. Look in the Lot Catalog and click on an entry there. It wiil display the page for a single item for sale, and usually there's a contact number and name for more info. The guy's with the info have nothing to gain by giving false info as they're just Frito Lay employees, so they can tell you straight up what the condition of a truck is.

NO, THEY ARE NOT ALL HIGH MILEAGE BEATERS! I saw one that had 46K, another with 50K etc. like hardly even broken in for a million mile engine. The deal is they came with a piece of junk Chevy Turbo-400 trans made for passenger cars! Most of these trannies were toasted by 50K, replaced, toasted again and Frito Lay finally [wisely] gave up on them. Beware that some of them are very high mileage so some phone work is worth the bother. Understand that these are $6,500 engines at the least, so don't let a low mileage unit slip out of your fingers for a few more bucks......but you know how much you've got that you can spend. Don't know what the going price is on dovebid though.

The one I just bought and finally drove home yesterday has 146K on it and runs real sweet. I got it for $1050 at a local public auction. Don't tell me prayer doesn't work ha haha! No engine problems at all, and surprisingly powerful going up steep grades in the mountains. They're great engines!!!

I have more info if and when you need it.

JimmieD

I started out buying new Cummins 4BTA's at $6,250, fully dressed ready to install. The very same engines now cost us over $7,100 since Cummins latest cost increase went into effect. It never stops.

The Rage
06-14-2006, 11:46 AM
I started out buying new Cummins 4BTA's at $6,250, fully dressed ready to install. The very same engines now cost us over $7,100 since Cummins latest cost increase went into effect. It never stops.

'Course the new ones are supposedly the only engines that are "low-sulphur" ready. That's what makes one of these mills, IF they've been maintained, a bargain for the average consumer just looking for something economical and basically trouble-free to drive.

The risky part of it all is that you wind-up 2 weeks later with a blown motor. For your hard-earned grand to 2500, you basically have a storage shed the NeighborHood Ordinance Patrol Elite(NOPE) give you grief about.

However, one has only to call, check maintenance records, and the what to do your best to find a "goodie"

JimmieD
06-14-2006, 12:52 PM
I hear ya, Charles, but you and me know it does finally quit one day! Sooner the better Ha haha!

Most of the breadvans/Fritos trucks are going to be TH400's. They are the Pontiac version of same. You can get a Cummins adapter plate and use the SM465 GM trans which is a very stout 4 speed. There's another later GM auto trans that works better than TH400 as it's stronger but I don't know GM nomenclature. I think it's their diesel truck trans. That might save some fabrication work.

I decided to go all Dodge and got a Cummins/Dodge adapter plate which bolts to back of engine. The Cummins/Dodge bellhousing then bolts to this, and you also need the Cummins/Dodge flywheel, and Cummins clutch slave cylinder. If your vehicle is not currently hydraulic clutch then you have to mount a hydraulic clutch master cylinder also. If it's an automatic changeover you'd need clutch pedal and etc.

There is a way to use the original Dodge slave cylinder on trucks so equipped and I'll be doing that. I have a NV4500 o'drive 5 speed I'll be using. It has 0.78 : 1 5th gear ratio. With my 4.1 Dana 60HD rearend and 31.5 inch diameter tires I'll be at 2,274 rpm at 65 mph. That's the sweet spot on 4BT for torque & mileage. I'll be getting a 3,200 rpm governor spring [stock is around 2,500 rpm] so that this combo will run up to 90 mph at 3,149 rpm and top out at close to 100.

Modifications to 4BT are possible. They use the same Bosch VE radial fuel pump as 1st Generation Cummins 6BT Dodges. Bosch POD [Prince of Darkness, what were these guys thinking?] injectors at about $300 will add 38 hp to stock 105hp. An Old smokey Power Pin for the fuel pump adds 16 horsepower. 3,200 rpm governor spring [$12] increases top end revs. HY35 9cm turbocharger [used wrecker's price] out of an '01-'02 Dodge Cummins automatic equipped truck adds some more go. Toss in a Snows Water/Methanol injection kit [$700-$1,200] and you have a 3.9L 4 cylinder Cummins that pumps out an easy 180-200 hp with at least 500 ft. lbs of torque. In my combination described above this will still give 30 mpg mileage on the hiway!

The 4BT engine weighs about 750 lbs, or the approx. same as a big block Chevy. You need adequate springs for the extra weight. Due to the serious torque numbers you need a very heavy duty rear end and a stout driveline.

I had to drive the Fritos truck from Orland, CA up through the mountains almost to the Oregon border. If it wasn't for traffic I doubt it would have ever gotten below 55mph except on one long grade where it held 45 at the crest. These 18 ft. vans weigh about 7,800 pounds empty, and I was towing my Chevy LUV behind. Temp gauge stayed dead center, and 65 lbs oil pressure all the way. Not bad....

JimmieD

djester
06-14-2006, 06:51 PM
****, Jim, I wish you lived in Indiana so I could sit at your feet and learn about these things!! Sure is interesting and I enjoy your knowledge and experience. You wouldn't consider moving, would you? :-)

Dave

JimmieD
06-14-2006, 10:40 PM
Hey, Dave, your overestimation of me is flattering regardless of however it may be lacking in actual fact! I got this stuff off of the internet through diligent searches and it's not some overwhelming knowledge I carry around between my ears. For me the grey matter is more on a level of, "Hungry." "Eat food." and other like rocket science ha haha!

The reason for the last post is that a description of how to 'Bomb' a 4BT Cummins isn't easily found or spelled out in very many places, so I wanted to leave at least some hints here for those that are into it.

BTW: working on UPS shipments during the end of this week and will gather info for you as I am able. Had to strike while the iron was smoldering on the above mentioned 4BT!

JimmieD

djester
06-14-2006, 11:27 PM
If you don't quit worrying about shipping stuff, I'm going to quit corresponding with you! :-) I honestly don't care if it is six months from now -- or forever, for that matter.

Even though I don't understand half what I read, I enjoy reading your posts. Always sounds like fun!

Dave

JimmieD
06-14-2006, 11:43 PM
Ha ha, thanks Dave!

JimmieD

CREEPING DEATH
07-13-2006, 01:20 AM
Modifications to 4BT are possible. They use the same Bosch VE radial fuel pump as 1st Generation Cummins 6BT Dodges. Bosch POD [Prince of Darkness, what were these guys thinking?] injectors at about $300 will add 38 hp to stock 105hp. An Old smokey Power Pin for the fuel pump adds 16 horsepower. 3,200 rpm governor spring [$12] increases top end revs. HY35 9cm turbocharger [used wrecker's price] out of an '01-'02 Dodge Cummins automatic equipped truck adds some more go. Toss in a Snows Water/Methanol injection kit [$700-$1,200] and you have a 3.9L 4 cylinder Cummins that pumps out an easy 180-200 hp with at least 500 ft. lbs of torque. In my combination described above this will still give 30 mpg mileage on the hiway!

The 4BT engine weighs about 750 lbs, or the approx. same as a big block Chevy. You need adequate springs for the extra weight. Due to the serious torque numbers you need a very heavy duty rear end and a stout driveline.
POD a/k/a "Prince of Darkness" is what the Lucas-brand injectors are called. Ask any British car or motorcycle driver why...

CD

MoparNorm
07-13-2006, 04:08 PM
Even though I don't understand half what I read, I enjoy reading your posts. Always sounds like fun!

Dave

It's OK Dave, Jim doesn't understand half of what he posts either....ha!ha! Love ya JimmieD!
MN

JimmieD
07-13-2006, 09:59 PM
It's OK Dave, Jim doesn't understand half of what he posts either....ha!ha! Love ya JimmieD!
MN

I'll have you know, Mopar Norm, that I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself! It's just that you do a much better job of it most of the time :~ )

p14175
07-15-2006, 11:15 AM
After reading this thread I thought I would throw in a warning.

If you find a really good deal on a 4BT, but it doesn't have the EPA sticker and the engine decal with the serial number and CPL attached to it, the seller might be hiding something. The EPA sticker tells you if the engine is approved for automotive use. This is important because stationery and marine versions of the 4BT are not designed for automotive applications. Without the engine serial number or CPL it can (will) be difficult to order parts for the engine.

I have seen several cases of 4BTs being sold on eBay and other places where the sellers have tried to pass off industrial and marine engines as automotive, even while posting pictures of the EPA (non automotive use) and engine tags. We recently found what we thought was a great deal on a 1996 4BTA (it was being sold with the aftercooler parts), but the seller refused to provide a picture of the tags, but said he could go to the salvage yard and "get a set" for it since we were so concerned about it. The engine might have been legit, but the seller couldn't prove it. We dropped that deal like a hot potato.

Be careful!

Linda


Here's a little more information
This is a description of the difference between an on-road Diesel and stationary Diesel engine as in a generator. The on-road is designed to run at variable speeds while the stationary engine is designed to run at a fixed rpm. Here's how and why:

original post by flyin71h (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/cummins4BT/message/1330):


"The primary difference between an on road and off road engine is the function of the governer. The on road engine has what is sometimes referred to as a speed governer, which does exactly what the name implies. It limits the maximum rpm of the engine and nothing else. Actual engine speed (below max) is controlled by the throttle linkage on the injection pump. If the load on the engine increases, rpm will decrease unless the throttle is opened further by some outside influence. In the case of a truck engine, that influence would be the driver's foot. The off road engine has a load governer. It's purpose is to keep the engine at a specified rpm regardless of load. As load increases or decreases, the governer proportionally increases or decreases fuel delivery to maintain the same rpm without any movement of the throttle. What this means is, when your truck with the off road engine in it encounters a hill, it is going to try to go faster all by itself. I'm not saying it won't work, but it will be very "different" to drive, and could potentially be dangerous under certain circumstances.
original"

original post by BOB SOVA (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/cummins4BT/message/1333):

"I agree with you and could not have said it better. You have perfectly described a "industrial stationary engine" in a power unit such as a pump or generator. They are designed to run at a fixed speed to prevent cavitations in the pump or to maintain the hertz frequency in a generator. There are however some non-stationary off road diesel engines that could possibly be adapted to function in vehicles. These would be found in wheeled and tracked tractors. These engines are designed to be run at variable throttle position speeds and the governor is designed to increase and maintain the engine speed only as far as the throttle is positioned. The major difficulty in using one of these engines would be emission certification requirements that our duly elected officials have established for our own protection."


All I can add is choose your engines wisely and look for the EPA approved tag.

MoparNorm
07-15-2006, 02:12 PM
In addition, for those of you in CA, thinking about this conversion into a gasser that currently falls under CA emmissions regulations (1972 and newer), the motor must be the same age or newer than your vehicle and it must have been a CA legal application in the donor vehicle it came from, so those stickers are also required from CA EPA. Once approved by the CA DMV Referee, your vehicle will not be subject to future anual smog inspections* as diesels are exempt from inspection in CA.
MN
*2007 and newer diesels require catalytic converters and will require inspection in CA. As an example, the Jeep 2.8 CRD found in the Liberty, is a 45 state motor and NOT legal in CA. A perfect motor for the Jeep conversion, but not legal in CA....= (

p14175
07-15-2006, 02:56 PM
In Arizona there are two counties, Maricopa (where Phoenix is located) and Pima (where Tucson is located) with emissions testing on vehicles 1967 and newer. The rest of the state does not have any emissions testing. That makes 1966 and older vehicles ideal candidates for diesel conversions if you live in one of those counties. Else I think the only way you can legitimately do a diesel repower is if the vehicle had a diesel option when it was manufactured. For example, you could get a 1989 Dodge 3/4-ton truck with either a gasoline or diesel engine so making the swap would be okay.

JimmieD
08-29-2006, 06:44 AM
Additional to what P14175 said: there are currently two 4BT cummins advertised in various places on the net for about $2,000 from one seller. I e-mailed him and the engines DO NOT HAVE CPL tags! As mentioned above, this is the first question on any engine purchase. I would not consider either of those engines.

Also a few 4BT's have been stolen lately. The CPL number is virtually the same as a VIN because no other VIN's are used on most vehicles with 4BT. Not saying these two engines mentioned are stolen, but cautioning everyone to use care in your selection. I'd hate to pop the hood at a truck stop and have the 6' 8" 345 lbs trucker standing next to me say, "Hey, weasel, that's MY ENGINE!" Bad day at the Flying J........

Gene Climer
12-06-2007, 08:42 PM
I just bought a brand spanking new Cummins 3.9L ISB170 off of eBay just last week. It is targeted for a 1949 Dodge Power Wagon truck. I want to mate it to an NV4500 5 speed. But, I am not having much luck figuring out what kind of Bell Housing will allow this to happen for under $1200 from Cummins. Does anyone know of a used Bell Housing I can get for this? It needs to have an SAE 3 pattern on the motor, and the NV4500 pattern for the transmission. Thanks!

Well, I have solved this problem by fabricating a custom Bell Housing (Actually two of them, I have a spare now). I bought a 1998 Dodge NV4500HD 5 speed, and a 1993 Dodge NP205 which almost bolted right up (Had to machine the Coupler down a little on one side). But, all the pieces play together now! WooHOO!

You can see the bits and pices coming together by going -here- (http://www.beckersauto.com/GeneClimer.htm). Or you can type it in like so: http://www.beckersauto.com/GeneClimer.htm

Thanks,
Gene

p14175
12-07-2007, 09:20 AM
Well, I have solved this problem

I am glad you came up with a solution. I was going to mention Phoenix Castings http://www.phxgrp.com as a source for adapters.

You might also want to check out the 4btswaps forum. http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/index.php

I like your project! Way Cool!

Gene Climer
12-07-2007, 09:40 AM
I was going to mention Phoenix Castings http://www.phxgrp.com as a source for adapters.

I tried Phoenix castings. They really don't have a clean solution. First you buy a Phoenix Castings SAE#3 adaptor plate which takes you to a Chevy Flywheel Housing pattern. Then you have to find a Chevy Bell Housing. And you need a Chevy NV4500 at that point. I already had the Dodge NV4500HD and did not want to replace the input shaft.

But, wait, there is more.

Then you have to get the Cummins Flywheel for the SAE#3 housing, $850 later. My ISB170 only came with a flexplate. Then you bolt the Phoenix Castings Flywheel adaptor to yur SAE#3 Flywheel. And then you buy yourself a Chevy Flywheel and bolt it to the Phoenix Castings Flywheel adaptor. And then you buy a Chevy clutch to mate to the chevy input shaft of your now modified NV4500. Well, all told, this was about $2500 worth of stuff.

I also tried Wilcap adaptors. I talked to them on and off for months and got no where. I finally bit the bullet and designed and built my own Bell Housing.

Gene

mtbr41
12-15-2008, 07:26 PM
Sorry for such a late post, but I just came upon this site when I was searching for a 4bt....TO the OP, did you ever get your engine? Any chance of sending me the contact info? Thanks in advance

mtbr41
12-20-2008, 11:58 AM
New here....came across this site while looking for a 4bt, never had heard of a power wagon, but I find them very cool, there is a ton of info on this site. I am looking to mate a 4bt into a ford 250(say it aint so) and am curious to find out the OP's experiences with his contact. This is the first solid source I have found, and would greatly appreciate more info...thanks

Brandon

Charles Talbert
12-20-2008, 12:07 PM
New here....came across this site while looking for a 4bt, never had heard of a power wagon, but I find them very cool, there is a ton of info on this site. I am looking to mate a 4bt into a ford 250(say it aint so) and am curious to find out the OP's experiences with his contact. This is the first solid source I have found, and would greatly appreciate more info...thanks

Brandon

Give us a call or e-mail via the website below.

mtbr41
12-20-2008, 05:42 PM
Looking for someone local, but I will definatly check you guys out

JimmieD
12-20-2008, 09:52 PM
I strongly suggest you do contact Charles Talbert 'M Series Rebuilds'. You won't get better or more accurate information and his reputation is most excellent! He is one of 2 people to whom I would give my truck and a blank check, "Call me when you're done...".

MoparNorm
12-21-2008, 11:54 AM
I strongly suggest you do contact Charles Talbert 'M Series Rebuilds'. You won't get better or more accurate information and his reputation is most excellent! He is one of 2 people to whom I would give my truck and a blank check, "Call me when you're done...".

Hmmm... and whom might that second person be??? = )

JimmieD
12-21-2008, 04:17 PM
Hmmm... and whom might that second person be??? = )

Don't let it go to your head, Bunky, and I never said I was going to SIGN the check, just that it would be BLANK HAAAH! :~ )