Building a shop....

[Jonas Smith]

We are going to refi our house since the rates are so low and get some cash out of the equity to build me a shop. Question is how big? Since my family wholesales treated wood, I am going with a pole barn type construction.

I typically always have 4 Power Wagons in some state of assembly/disassembly. I also want to start fabricating sheetmetal parts. Inside the building, I need an enclosed, vented area for painting. I also plan on a woodshop area for ripping bed wood pieces that I have been making out of Birds Eye maple, and Tiger maple, some other fancy wood also.

I was thinking 40'x80' enclosed, with a 12' shed roof off one of the 80' sides, and 1/2 of the enclosed area will have a loft. 16' from the floor to up to the bottom of the trusses. My father (who owns the wood business) says I should go bigger, like 60'x100'. That sounds HUGE to me (like wharehouse size!).

How big is your shop, is it big enough, how was the $ factor, anything you would do different? Metal siding or wood?

Thanks
Jonas

[chewie]

to figure up what you need, and then double it. Might as well get it all under one roof.
Chewie

[Gordon Maney]

My first building was 42x48, the second is 40x40. I have 12’ under the trusses and 10’ high doors in each building. I used overhead doors that are 18’ wide.

A taller building is definitely better. Some projects take a lot of headroom. Also, if you are lifting something from a tall truck, you need room for your overhead hoist, or whatever you are using. My old building has a jib crane in it that I built. It has a 15’boom carrying two hoists, each capable of 1 ton. The crane is designed to take 2 tons at the end of the boom. It is attached to a footing keyed into the floor, the footing is 5’square and 4’deep, solid concrete.

The floor in my first building is 4” with wire. The floor in my second building is 6” with bar in a grid; a much better floor. Don’t skimp on your floor and do the sub grade properly so it does not settle. My first building has a trench drain running down the center of the long dimension. There are slopes in the floor to implement that.

My second floor is dead flat and no drain. So very many projects I have done were impeded by the slopes and the drain. I have never had enough water in that building to warrant a drain, so when I did the second I did not put one in.

Your building should be deep enough so you can pull two of your typical vehicles in, end to end, and still get around them. That is a crude rule, but I find an important one.

Put a ceiling in and insulate over it. Even if you don’t do the walls and even if you don’t heat it, that will make an enormous difference. Also, make your ceiling out of the same skin as you put on the building. Sheetrock is terrible, I have learned the hard way.

Think a lot about how you will attach your skin…. Nails or screws. Big debate over that, particularly on the roof. Steel siding is fine; I would not consider wood siding.

The roof is the big question. Some would suggest that a plywood sheeted roof with asphalt shingles is the way to go.

Understand this: A nailed or screwed roof will leak, someday. That is why a sheetrock ceiling is a disaster. I have caulked every single nail in the end of my building that has the ceiling. If you have big bucks, get a standing seam roof, that won’t leak and will last longer than you do. Think a lot more about the roof than you do about the walls. It is the roof that is going to come back and bite you someday.

Don’t cheap out on the walk door(s), use good commercial steel doors, and think a lot about windows, weighing light against security. You want as small a number of security exposure points in your building as possible.

Lighting, electrical (and compressed air) are almost the subject of another entire discussion. Consider putting up a bridge crane, if you have ever used one or been around one, you would kill to own one of them. Often those are available for virtually scrap price do to the regrettable decline of manufacturing industry in these United States of America.

Make sure the building floor is sufficiently raised above the surrounding grade so you have no chance of water wanting to run in the building.

Those are my thoughts as of this moment. I may add some later….

[Gordon Maney]

I am interested in your remarks about a pole building. I own two of them, one built in 1978 and another built in 1998. I had both of them built because I did not think I could afford anything with a real masonry foundation.

I have no reason to doubt my older building’s poles. However, the reason I was able to afford the second one was that a storm took my barn and hog house. Insurance paid for this second building.

When the adjuster was out to assess the damage, we got to talking about pole buildings. He said he had one that was built, remarkably, in 1978 also. He said he could take a probe rod and go into the ground at an angle, toward his poles. There was no resistance on any he tried, suggesting they were rotted away below grade.

I have 6 inch top, round posts I put in some years ago and they rotted away also. There seems to be quite a range of possible grades of treated wood, it seems. It scares me to death, and no, I have not checked my old building’s poles with a probe.

[Jonas Smith]

I have heard that about older treated stuff. That the concrete eats it away. The solution to this was to wrap the bottom of the poles in tarpaper. The new stuff is supposed hold up in concrete. I am planning on using 6"x6"X20' poles spaced 10' on center.

The best choice for a roof around here is a steel roof over treated sheeting because of the snow loads.
I agree on the 6" slab and make it flat. I will have some drains put in, but I'll just have a big floor squeege to move the water into them.

[HWooldridge]

My shop was built primarily for blacksmithing but has the following equipment:

Torch, 150 amp MIG, 225 Lincoln crackerbox, 10x36 Sheldon lathe, 9x42 Bridgeport vertical mill, pedestal drill press, 100lb Beaudry trip hammer, 3 forges, 2 anvils, 50 ton arbor press, 6 vises, 2x72 belt grinder (homemade but works like a Baldor), 7hp air compressor with 100 gallons of air (two tanks in series) and a lot of hand tools. I have a 2 ton electric hoist on single trolley with maximum hook lift height of 8 ft.

The shop is a pole type built on 12 inch treated pine poles set in concrete, 4 feet in the ground, and has a shed roof - 14 foot on the high end 10 on the low across the short side of a 36x24 floorplan.

I live in Central Texas and have lost two wood supported roofs in 9 years. The first time I was lazy and just didn't put in enough lumber but the second was constructed of 2x6 trusses, glued and bolted but the 100mph wind that came thru just peeled it off and scattered it about 500 yds thru the neighbor's field.

The current roof is galvanized V-crimp on 4 inch purlins welded to 12 inch I-beam bolted to the poles. It has lived thru a couple of 80 mph storms so maybe I finally built it right. I would not recommend wood to anyone due to my bad experiences but a better carpenter might prevail.

Siding is steel with many windows for ventilation. Lights are six, 8-foot dual bulb fluorescents and a 100 amp service for the whole thing. I have a dirt floor, which I do not recommend for a car shop but it's fine for welding and forging. My next shop will probably be 30x40 with slab on half and the machine shop in air conditioning so I don't get rust all over the expensive stuff...H

[Doc Dave]

I built a machine shed using pole construction very inexpensively. The plans were from the U.S.D.A. (through the Ag extension office, I believe), so I knew they were done by an engineer and accounted for snow, wind, etc.

It is 24X48, but it could be longer in 16' modules. IN my case there is 3 openings in front 16' wide. I have concrete poured in one bay.

I got used telephone poles from the elec. company free, and have them 4 ' in the ground on footers. These poles are 8' apart on the back and sides and 16' apart in front.

24 ' Trusses on 4 ft. centers support the 2x4' s holding the metal roofing

I used local rough sawn lumber for siding, but I could have used T- 111 or the equivalent.

Gussetts and king posts are at appropriate places to prevent racking.

I do not think I could have got a stronger building any cheaper than I did with this one.

[Gordon Maney]

Originally posted by Doc Dave
I used local rough sawn lumber for siding, but I could have used T- 111 or the equivalent.

Are you using the rough sawn lumber as lap siding, or in some other fashion? Just out of curiosity, what species of tree was used for this siding?

Utility poles are pretty good things. In some places they are hard to get because so many people want them.

[Doc Dave]

Gordon,
A little secret I discovered is that many country sawmills sell lumber much cheaper than what you would get at a lumber "store".
In my case I have acreage, I didn't have buy siding this time. I cut down some Poplar (the best species to use in the east) and Sweet Gum and used my tractor with a front end loader to put it on a friends truck. I hauled it to the sawmill and they only charged me about 10 cents a board foot to cut it rough sawn. The best dimension in my opinion for vertical siding is 7/8" thick by 10 inches wide put up with battens, which is what I am doing on this project. The sawmill sells this type among other items. Other times I have got narrower stock for horizontal use ("German siding") but it is more labor intensive than the vertical.

As the wood dries it shrinks to nearly 3/4" and 9 1/2". Other times I have used Sycamore, Oak and Pine. Poplar is my favorite. I think Cottonwood may be comparable. Poplar warps very little which is good for siding.

The sawmill also sells framing lumber: I bought some Pine 2x8's for girders from them. Again cheaper than the building supply. There is NO reason to buy kiln dried lumber for an outdoor building. I have built many structures over the years with green lumber... 2 car garage with loft, barn, 2 machine sheds, garden shed, smoke house. Except for siding (put up fairly green) I always rack it in a covered place so as to allow slow drying (1" per year). Then I use it. FOr framing (Except the girders) I prefer planed lumber which the sawmill will do for a nominal fee.
Sorry about the long winded answer!

[MoparNorm]

Jonas,
You know that in my real life (ha!ha!) I am a builder. E-mail me and I'll walk you through any question/advice/comment that you might have.
I think this is the first time that I have disagreed with Gordon on anything. Gordon, regarding your roofing comments, remember your days in the dealership repair shop where you had no returns on your work, but you inherited another fellows work because of repeated call backs? Well that is the same reason that your roof leaks. There is no inherent reason that a roof should leak, just the opposite, a good roof, installed properly will give 40-50 years of service before the sun beats it down. (little known fact, it is the sun that causes roofs to leak, not water! Water is the unfortunate end result ha!ha!) Your roof (s) have leaked because of poor application and choice of product, or workmanship, not because of type. Drywall is an excellent, inexpensive covering for the inside of a shop, but if the exterior material was installed poorly or improperly neither drywall nor titanium will hold up.
Sadly builders are just like mechanics, there are very few good ones and plenty of mediocre ones. The layman is at the mercy of luck when choosing a builder, even for advice. Just as any mechanic thinks he is the Ace of his trade, so does every fly-by-night contractor. When you find a good or knowlegable contractor, just like a good mechanic, you keep him! Unfortunately it sounds like you spent a lot of money on your buildings finding that out the hard way.
MN

[Gordon Maney]

Norm,

I agree with the philosophy you express, about a proper job. Having said that, and living in farm country, every single nailed or screwed metal roof I have ever seen accumulate some seniority has leaked, particularly the nailed roofs. The sealing washers get hard, the roof expands and contracts, the nails or screws move repeatedly from the expansion and contraction of the sheet metal, they are just doomed to fail in some amount.

I am not saying that you should not use those roofs, I am saying that you should expect them to leak, and don't put anything under them (like sheetrock) that can't stand water.

There is a lot bad about an asphalt shingled roof, particularly the part where we have to shingle it again, but it is not affected by all of this expansion and contraction.

That is why I vote for the standing seam roof, but just can't afford it!

[MoparNorm]

Hi Gordon,
My point was, don't expect any roof that I install to leak, ha!ha!

There are many variables, that escape the layman, that will cause a roof to leak. Nailing a roof, if you are refering to the under sheathing, nails will eventually "pop" as the wood framing underneath dries and shrinks, the cure for that is ringshank or screwshank nails, AND getting the roof covered with a membrane in a proper time frame.

Screwing and glueing is the prefered way for a flat deck sheathing. If you are refering to the nails that fasten the shingles, be they wood or asphalt, NEVER, ever, should a nail be exposed, that is the purpose of lapping the roofing membrane. Never should expansion and contraction effect the roof membrane, if it does it was poorly installed or improperly engineered.

It still sounds like a novice installation to me. I know that most country work is engineered and installed by farmers ha!ha! (don't take that as a slight, farming and ranching run in my family). Remember duct tape and bailing wire has a thousand and one uses in the country, but if you want true workmanship, leave construction to trained professional. (self training and 35 years of indentured servitude allowed).

Expecting a roof to leak is like expecting your motor to only last 45 miles. A good asphalt roof will last 35-40 years, a cheap one 10-15, you get what you pay for.

A little known item for most homeowners/laymen/novices is that a true roofing warantee includes a Bonded Warantee that provides insurance for the life time of the roof. Do you pay a little more for that? Certainly, but there is a BIG difference between a "warantee" and a "Bonded" roof installation. A "warantee" gives you a little slip of paper saying that the product is waranteed IF...and does not include tear-off and installation labor. A "Bonded" roof actually comes with an underwritter and a full inspection by the manufacturer of the installers work, it includes labor and material and believe me they take it seriously.


Lastly, a roof doesn't know if it is in farm country, ranch country or in the city, it does however know Longitude and altitude, as those are the true variables that test roofing longevity.

MN

[Gordon Maney]

I think, as Paul Newman said, we have had a failure to communicate....

I apologize for not having been more clear. My leak-oriented remarks have all been about ribbed, sheet steel roofing of the sort used on pole buildings, that is what I meant about nails and screws and leakage. I was not referring to asphalt shingle roofing applied to sheathing.

I don't expect an asphalt shingle roof to leak, either.....

[MoparNorm]

Hi Gordon,
Thanks for clearing that up, as I thought that might be the case. However (ha!ha!) they shouldn't leak either!
In metal over wood construction, the perlins, which the metal roofing is attached to, should be metal "Z" perlins and not wood. The Z perlins are attached to the wood main frame of the pole barn (shop); that will mediate somewhat the expansion and contraction rate between the two dissimilar materials. The technology involved at the fastener gasket (screws, NEVER nails!!) is really quite good, I have seen maybe one out of 1,000 fastener gaskets fail at the neopreme gasket and leak. Normally if more that that ratio leak, I can trace it back to the same individual installer, who unfortunately will be unemployed after that, since proper technique when applying the screws is critical. The "stitch" screws naturally should always be installed in the "high" rib of the sheet and therefore will rarely if ever leak.
In the last 35 years I have built/errected more than half a million square feet of metal buildings, out of that total and thousands of screws, I can recall only three or four screw failures which caused very small leaks. There are seam gaskets that are applied between each deck (roof) sheet prior to installing the "stitch" screws and the ridge cap technology is really great and can incorporate vents, both manual and automatic, and the new skylight sheets greatly cut down on the amount of electricity needed for illumination during the day. The biggest problem will more than likely come at the eave during winter "icing" Proper eave gasket closure installation and gutter intergration will prevent the ice dams from backing up into the structure and ruining that lovely drywall finish!
Now that everyone is asleep, I will end this entry! ha!
MN

[MoparNorm]

Now that Washington is in siesmic zone 4, if a building permit is required in your locallity, a Pole Barn may not be that much cheaper than using a Miracle Truss or conventional metal building. So much engineering is required to make a pole barn conform to siesmic codes, in addiiton to drawings required to be submitted by a licensed WA civil/structural engineer, that it will cancel out any savings you might have.
If allowed in your area, a metal building is the most cost effective way to go.
MN

[Jonas Smith]

I got a price on a '42-'64-'14 ( at the eaves) building, delivered to my house in Kit form for $22,345. I realize that I will have another $8k into the foundation to have it done right. Add in more for doors and windows also. That dosent even come close to the bids I have been getting on the same size or slightly smaller pole barn.
I think the Miracle Truss building will fit my use better and last longer than a pole barn. It has been said that pole barns are basicly temporary structures because the poles will eventually rot out in the concrete. Plus I really like the free span on the floor, and no voidspace in the wood trusses found in a pole barn (that uses prefab trusses).
The building looks like it can be put up by myself and 4 or 5 realtives in a weekend or two. I have a 30' a-frame (or gin-pole!) that fits on the front of our old '43 Navy GTB "burma jeep" so we wont have to rent a crane or anything to tip up the trusses.
I like the looks of a board and batt siding, and a comp roof but this building comes with steel sides, steel roof and a 30year maintenence free warranty.
The other deciding factor was when I got the brochure from miracle truss, theres a picture of a WDX type Power Wagon with a snow blower installed on front and 3' of snow on the roof of the building! It's fate I tell ya!

[MoparNorm]

That's the way to go (see all my other long and boring posts!) Pre-engineered and ready to install. Get the frame up, PLUMB all walls first, then install your longest wall sheeting for plumb and bracing purposes and you're ready to go. Install all walls first then the roof (backwards from conventional building) It should go pretty quick. The best tool to have is a fork lift, a couple of cordless nut/screw drivers will make it go faster. I errected a 60 x 120 Building in two weeks with one helper, it won't take long! You should recieve a foundation plan and an anchor bolt placement sheet from the Building Manufactuer, stick to it and it will be simple.
MN

[MoparNorm]

I received your e-mail, thanks!

[49 T&C]

A couple of thoughts for your garage - Before you pour the slab, run LOTS of PVC chases under the concrete from one end to the other, Stub them up and cap'em off. When you want to run electrical, water or air from one end to the other, you will really appreciate not having to climb up and run conduit overhead.

Check with your local county school board. Ours has a disposal auction every 6 months or so for big stuff, but they sell "little" things constantly. Call around your area - I picked up 20 -8' flourscent fixtures with bulbs for $1.oo each. I also got a nice untra-sonic cleaner (used in a science lab) for $5.00. Its big enough for a carb or handgun. I also got a nice 'welding table from a metal shoip for $5.00. Gym lockers became a nice POL storage and were $10 ea.


Pickup a used dishwasher, use it for a parts washer. They are cheap and it will keep you in good standing with your wife if you don't use hers.

Keep a GOOD fire extinguisher accessable. You need as good stereo, hang the speakers from the ceiling to not use floorspace.

My shed is 300 ft away from the house. I installed inexpensive IR motion detectors 4' above the floor. The dog won't set them off, but an unwelcomed visitor will. I am alerted in the house if the IR's go off. It's amazing how the sound of cycling a 12ga. gets people's attention...

Mine is 40 X 54 X 14 high. Its not big enough!!! Got 4 vehicles in it now, tool crib and storage and work area. 480 sq ft additional storage above the tool crib & its still not big enough!!

Go as big as you can afford.

49 T&C

[Gordon Maney]

Given that I have a background in manufacturing industry, I am no stranger to a tool crib. However, I have to realize I never considered one for a home shop.

I think I like the idea. How big is your tool crib? Is it a chain link fence cage? How did you set it up inside?

[49 T&C]

The tool crib is 12' x 24' with a 4' opening so I can get engine hoist/sandblaster/engine test stand in & out with having to take them apart. Shelves for power tools (circular saws/sawsall/angle grinders, etc. Jackstands, ladders, etc. The idea is to have one place for tools you don't use often but you don't have to hunt the things down all over the shed.

It has an 8' ceiling and almost 300 sq ft of household storage above it.

Another suggestion is to place your air compressor AS FAR AWAY FROM THE SHED AS POSSIBLE!!! At least mount it outside (but covered).

49 T&C

[powerwagontim]

Hi All,

I thought I might weigh in with my shop experiences. I, like Norm, am a Builder. It doesn't matter what size you build, it wont be large enough. You will fill the available space. (nature abhors a vacuum!)

My shop, in Vermont is 44 x 56, with a full "attic" 32x44 is dedicated to my cabinet shop, the upstairs in that section is lumber storage and a paint room. Of the balance, 24 x 28 is the garage, 2 bays, one taken up with a long term project, a 1960 Triumph TR-3A.

I try to keep the second bay clear for shorter term projects (backhoe, Power Wagon, Triumph Spitfire, wife's van, company trucks, kids bikes... always something. The rest of the square is an unheated shed space with sliding doors.

There is an attached pole barn wing, 24 x 45 for storage of equipment in this frozen northern wasteland I call home. The main section of the shop is on a thickened edge slab, on a bed of stone. We framed the walls conventionally with 2x6s on 24" centers. We used steel strapping as diagonal braces, then put rough sawn 1x6s horizontally on 24" centers for purlins. a layer of house wrap then green steel siding (roofing) SCREWED on.

I priced using T-111 plywood for siding, the steel cost less, comes painted and will last longer than the T-111 and look nicer too. A no brainer.

The ceiling is wood I-joists. I wanted a clear span in the wood shop. The garage has a big steel I beam running front to back, the floor joists rest on top of that. The roof is framed conventionally with 2x12 rafters, 1x6 purlins and galvanized roofing. I have had no leaks.

As Norm pointed out, if you apply materials properly, they will perform properly. (properly isn't always the quickest, and there is nothing wrong with reading the manufacturers information on how they want their product installed!) I have been very pleased with the shop, it is about 8 years old now.

Thanks, Tim

[MoparNorm]

Hi Tim,
Sounds pretty stout!
Two things that you can never have enough of....storage space and shop area! I downsized a 3,000 sq. ft. shop into 1,000. What a pain! I don't think that I could live with less than 3,500 sq. ft. and that is for starters!
Shop Shoehorn (http://photos.imageevent.com/moparnorm/w200frameoff/websize/DCP_0221.JPG)
MN

[powerwagontim]

Hi Norm,
Too true. To help on the storage issue, I connected my pole barn to the shop, giving an additional 20 feet, and weeded out alot of what I had felt a need to store. There is still alot which my wife would not see fit to store, but thats a different story. Now, how to add to the garage...
Tim

[jdog]

Any building without ventilation should not have gutters.
Gutters are not a solution for ice damming, rather it will compound the problem. This is especially true if the building is heated. Two things are needed to prevent ice damming, and there must be an appropriate amount of each. They are insulation and ventilation. This keeps the underside of the roof cool preventing snow melting and freezing at the eave where the heat builds up less. The more heat you have in the building, the more insulation and ventilation required to keep the roof cool. Also, overhangs at the eave create a cool space for the melting snow to freeze. Avoid overhangs at the eaves and spend your money on insulation and venting. In a nut shell , the closer you keep the attic temp( and ultimately the underside of the roof) to the outside ambient temp the less chance you have of ice damming. P.S. Snow has to melt, but it doesnt have to freeze until it hits the ground. Suprised this wasnt learned before the million square foot mark!

[MoparNorm]

To which post was your reply addressed?
MN

[Dodgeum]

Never to big. This one is 40 x 80 with drive through doors, front and back. Half for vehicle and half for storage. I started out with a 8 x 12 shed then a 30 x 50 pole barn and still need more room.

[Steve Pellock]

Hi Jonas. I have a 40' x 80' x 20' metal building that we added another 50' x 80' to as a wood shop. The original is used for welding, equipment storage/repairs. In the middle of the 40' x 80' is my C1 that has been torn apart for 2 years. In the winter I park our fleet of 4 trucks in there too. Not much extra space. Marty has at least 2 laps on me on the rebuilding. It seems to take up a lot of floor space. I agree with your dad if you are going to have 4 vehicles. I would go as big as you can afford. The snow load in our part of Wisconsin is 40# live load. Commercial buildings have 6' o/c post spacing. Some ag applications have 8' or 10'. With your snow load I would place them closer. Compare metal to post frame. If you go post frame use laminated columns. Everyone makes a big deal about Morton but I would rate their package average in quality at best. I can e-mail a picture of the shop interior with a rolling frame if you would like, to see how much extra space their is.

[Jonas Smith]

I'm pretty happy with the product. I have a so/so feeling about the company itself. A neighbor went with a building made by websteel out of Oregon and saved $4000 over me for the same basic size building. That said, he was not happy when his building arrived as the structural members are made out of formed sheetmetal in some places giving it a "tinny" feel. The miracle truss is built out of good thick steel channel, plate and rod.
I have the sides and windows on finally, now just need to save up some $ for a roll up door, electrical, and air throughout.