Pledge of Allegiance

[Paul Cook]

Today, the Supreme Court hears oral arguments on whether the Pledge of Allegiance can be read in public classrooms. The MSN home page I use for my primary internet browser has a link to a poll by CNBC-TV about removing the phrase, "under God" from the Pledge. Here is the text of my response to their request for opinions.

I was born in 1937 and grew up reciting the original Pledge. The United States prevailed in World War II under the original pledge.

When the disgraceful McCarthy hearings established "Godless" as part of the everyday definition of the "Commie Horde”, we adopted the “Under God” phrase – not in respect of a deity – but in fear of this “wanna be” deity. After all, if one avowed God, he or she could not be accused of being a godless communist by McCarthy and company.

I retired from the US Army with over 20 years of service. I defended my country and its flag. Much of the Cold War involved posturing and “saber rattling” by military forces who engaged the “godless communists” in a training scenario on target ranges where the enemy was a cardboard silhouette target. I was a Counterintelligence Special Agent and was actively engaged with meeting the “real world” communist threat every day of my service. I have no illusions about the communist threat.

Yet, every time I pledge my allegiance, I am reminded that I am not honoring a deity. I am continuing to honor the fearsome anti-communist hysteria that dishonors our proud history. We continually remember Hitler for creating the anti-Semitic hysteria that allowed him to rise to power, but we sweep the McCarthy era under the carpet because it was not a proud part of our history.

When I discuss this with friends, some feel that I am being blasphemous. These are the same people who have no sense of the history of “Under God” and how it came to be part of the pledge. Everyone I have met who opposes restoring the Pledge to its original form believes it was always in its present form.

I do not want to be an elitist but I have to say that only those who are ignorant of the history of this modification would oppose eliminating this phrase. I love my country. I would hope to see this last remnant of the McCarthy era also swept under the carpet.

How long must we continue to pay tribute to Senator Joseph McCarthy and his goal to have our currency say, “In Joe we trust”?

[MoparNorm]

Dear Paul,
I have rarely, if ever, disagreed with anything that you have posted. I have lived through and experienced most of the time frame that you referenced.
History is a wonderful thing, it allows us to review, after the hysterial has passed, where we came from and how we arrived. Senator McCarthy gets a lot of blame for issues that he never participated in. Much of the "hysterial" about communist in our government has subsequently proved to have been accurate. There were, and they did indeed spy on our government and provide both defense, nuclear and internal workings information to the Soviets. Much of this came to light after the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of KGB files. Many of our top level Ivy League bred advisors to both President Roosevelt and Truman were later proven to be communist agents, including Algier Hist and many others at cabinet level and advisory positions. Senator McCarthy found this shocking, as would many Americans had they also known the truth at that time. Much of the true "hysteria" was generated by the House UnAmerican Activities Commitee. Please note that Senator McCarthy did not have anything to do with those activities, hence the word House, please note that McCarthy was a Senator, hence the word Senator. Senators have nothing to do with the workings of the House. The witch hunts and hysteria was the result of actions of that chamber, not Senator McCarthy. His name has been unfairly blighted by the left because he exposed them for what they were, traitors to this country. I do not use the word traitor lightly, their actions resulted in the acquisition by the Soviets of the Hydrogen Bomb, and the assasination of dozens if not hundreds of American Operatives inside the Soviet Block.
I would highly recommend that you read the book 'Treason', by Ann Coulter. It is an enlightening, factual account of how Senator McCarthy was used as the whipping boy by the left, and how he continues to be unfairly vilified to this day. Kind of reminds my of how the left has unabridged hatred for our current Commander in Chief.
PS: None of us need a law in order to know that this nation is under God, but we need to look no farther than MTV or the nightly news to see what happens when we forget about God.
Yours Truly,
MoparNorm

[Terry Newton]

I was raised saying the Pledge as "one nation under God," and will continue to do so.

I will also teach my son to say the pledge in this manner. I don't care what anyone else, or the government says or does.

I consider myself to be open minded, and will argue about anything. However, everyone has issues in which they have made up their minds. This is one of those issues for me.

Thanks for your service to this country. We are indebted to you, as we are my father, my first cousin who made Gunny in Okinawa a few weeks ago, and many others.

[MoparNorm]

....that Paul's son and daughter-in-law are currently stationed in Iraq. A proud and patriotic family! We pray for their safe return.
MN

[mxpro]

I was born and raised in a small town, went to college and promptly returned "home". I was raised to say grace before our family meal, yes we actually ate meals together and discussed our day and what happend. If that wasn't enough, our parents were actually at the table and discussed their day with us, a noble concept huh? I am not a political person, nor a racist but I am very tired and angered by the few people who think they deserve special treatment at the expense of others.

My dad and countless other people have fought, struggled, suffered, sacrificed and much worse for the very reason these people have the right to object and/or protest. I cannot understand why that is not good enough for them.

"It was the soldier, not the reporter, that gave us the freedom of the press. It was the soldier, not the poet, that gave us the freedom of speech. It was the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gave us the freedom to demonstrate, It was the soldier, not the lawyer, that gave us the right to a fair trial.
It's the soldier's who salute the flag, serves under the flag, whose coffin is draped in the flag, that gives the protester the right to burn the flag."

D.E. O'Brien

Far too many people do not realize, nor care what individuals, families and generations sacrificed for US to have the priviledge to live in this great country. Why they cannot just live their lives and be content and happy is beyond my capacity to comprehend. When the day comes I can't say this countries pledge, including mentioning our "father", I will be throughly disgusted with the politicians who let it happen.

I did not live through the Great Depression, WWI, WWII, Korea or Vietnam but I have more respect for the people who did than any "modern day" person I have ever met. I just wish people could be thankful for what they have because of our history and soldiers. I know I am.......................

Curt

[JimmieD]

Thank you, Norm, Terry, MXPro, you are my fellow Americans and I am proud to know you. As for you, Mr. Cook, you have insulted me personally as I am a direct blood relative to Joseph Mc Carthy. I have my doubts about your 'Counter-Intelligence Service' as what you don't know about the Communist Party is only exceeded by what you do not have a clue about. Did you ever go into the enemy's jungles armed only with a Gerber Combat MKII, a garot wire, 14 days rations, a compass, map and canteen with no other issued weapon, alone, to physically meet the 'threat' face to face: who was fully armed and in strength?? Did you ever climb down in the dark stench of his tunnels to meet the 'threat'? Did you ever get to infiltrate him as a civilian on his ground, in a foreign country, alone, with no 'home' communication for weeks or months? Did you ever get found out? Did you never hear of the Red Brigade, HQ HQ USAEur Heidelberg, and FKT MILCOM, or the 'borders'? Certainly no illusion.

Some guys got into military intelligence and were then able to brag about their job to impress girlfriends and others or to hustle free drinks while they actually commanded a typewriter and a telephone. Others were sweating all but the last of their life's blood in that very hot 'Cold War', the part that never made the papers. Because of their cushy desk jobs many lived to brag; but because of the needs of this country others would remain forever unknown, and dead in this world. Therefore you have again insulted, and many even posthumously. They got no medals for defending your rights to insult them publicly, and they got no flag draped coffin, and no recognition. I don't think you were ever in a Communist country as an 'operative' during the Cold War. Why? Because you have no fear of or hatred for Communism. You also have no real world knowledge of it.


The Communists publicly stated at Moscow University what the battle plan was for the Cold War. Being as you were an 'operative' you can find the inside scoop? They said that what they would do was pressure the USA for years, and cause a stategic arms race, then cause us to disarm while claiming to do the same, yet maintaining their weapons. They would then stage a phony collapse in their own country while gaining great strength at the same time! They would throw themselves on the mercy of the USA and beg for help, while keeping their Red Army. They would appear to dismantle their country, while free capital from the stupid Americans. In their pleas they woud claim to be America's friend, and sorry about the misunderstandings. Then they would beg for technology to rebuild their 'shattered country and economies' and receive scientific and miltary secrets in exchange for pledges of peace. Wasn't the American/Soviet space station collaboration just heart-warming? At the same time they would slowly infiltrate our country. Once they had gotten strength they would be ready, but all the while they would undermine us from within. How could they increase strength while simultaneously dismantling their country? Can you say "UN"? Did you notice how many votes the USSR picked up by de-nationalizing all the satellite countries of USSR? Do you see that they had ONE vote against the USA in the UN before 'collapse', and now they have what, 38 or so? The last part of their plan has not occurred. That was the complete overthrow of America from within when we least expect it. First they would reunite USSR in a slightly different configuration, just as they have spoken of recently to prepare the Soviet peoples.

Very interesting that this hysteria and paranoia and illusion has come true to the letter exactly according to plan. Why? Because of folks who llisten to pinkos, socialists, commies et all and sympathize with them, and assist them in the planned undermining of America. Will they succeed? I don't know. Will guys like you ever wise up? Highly unlikely, 'cause you have made yourself to believe the revisionist history, and you have fallen for their deceit. Look around: the ideals of Communism are making deeper and deeper inroads into American thought, society and politics by the day! No God, no Nation under God, no Nation, just 'a united world', no Sovereign National Rights, take away the guns of America, overthrow America's morals, pollute the minds of the youth, push Socialism at every turn [liberal universities have now convinced America that Socialism is good, and it is not Communism, and the Republic is BAD!] Undermine any Christian religion, and when possible, any religious rights of any belief. Pop quiz, mister: What was the first country to fully implement the FORCED 'Separation of Church and State'? Naw, you're still not getting it, I can tell. They own your brains, comrade.

[MoparNorm]

Jimmie,
I can understand your passion.
Paul Cook is certainly able to defend his self, but I feel compelled to respond in his defense as it was my reply that started this.
I never, nor would I, questioned Pauls patriotism. I know but a little of his background, but I have a sense of the man. I do know that he served his country well. His children serve as we speak, they didn't get that sense of duty in a vacuum.
My point, perhaps missed because of my inability to articulate it, was that "McCarthyism" has become a slogan that is taken as truth by most people. People who have never (I do not include Paul in this group) experienced or studied McCarthy have blindly come to believe the vilification of the Senator at face value without knowing the true story. The Senator was attacked daily during his term and throughout history by the liberal press and the left, as though making McCarthy the center of attention would take the heat off of their treason. The left has a mantra that if a lie is repeated often enough, it becomes a truth. The liberal press constantly hammer their lies in print and broadcast.
I love debate, I watch as much of it as time allows. Because of my recent injuries I am watching a lot. I was watching Hannity & Combs the other night, the liberal lie being repeated over and over these days is that President Bush has caused the economy to sour (he has not, but that is a debate for another day). Elenore Clift, a well known liberal media person was bashing the President, with mindless slogans and half truths. It became apparent, even to her that she was losing the debate, and losing it badly, at the last moment she blurted out,"that's McCarthyism!" as though saying those words alone could salvage her argument. It made me sick to my stomach and incensed me to think that 50 years after the fact, liberals still resort to that lie, and think that they can drag McCarthy's name out to quell an argument and win the day. I too believed it for many years, after all, I grew up in the 50's, the press said it was so, liberals said it was so, few Republicans or anyone else for that matter came to his defense, and on and on.
It was only after a few events that happened in the last 5 years did I go back and research the era a little more indepth and try to read between the lines about McCarthy. Then last year, an excellent book by Ann Coulter, called Treason, was released. I read it and was amazed at what I read. The book lays out a convincing case of the truth. Well documented and footnoted with speeches, testimony, and facts it opened my eyes to the possibility that there was more to the story. A story that has been manipulated and distorted for over 50 years. That was my complaint with Pauls statement.
As far as the Soviet communist plot to take us over from within is concerned, whether that is still true or not, they overlooked a few things. One was the spirit and resolve of one man, President Ronald Reagan, the man who really won the cold war. The other was the spirit and resolve of the American people who after being discracefully led and demoralized by 4 years of bumbling by Jimmy Carter, rose to the occasion under Reagan's leadership to rebuild our nation, renew our spirit and stop cowering under the bedsheets at the mere mention of the Red Menance.
My gripe is not with Paul, it is with those who would forget how we got here and why.
I suppose that is why we all like, ....no love, the old Dodge Trucks , that is one thing we here have in common, we love these trucks, their dependability, toughness, simple function and no nonsense operation. Now that I mention it, that sounds like a discription of President Reagan too! That also sounds a lot like President George Bush.
MoparNorm

[JimmieD]

Thank you again, Norm. You seem to have a grasp on the Truth, a rare attribute in this day of continual liberal media assaults. I have requested the Moderator to delete my former post.

There is a certain nostalgia with any old vehicle [s] but there is certainly something special about Power Wagons. They were the single most likely vehicle to be found flying the Stars and Stripes, or a simple Star, officially. Their ruggedness is itself a symbol of the men and women who made them, and the ones who used them. They stand proud even when their day of glory is seemingly past, as they watch from their guard post over a weed encroached field. One finds the silent lone sentry and sees his uniform in tatters; the weapons of the Republic removed, and something is stirred in the heart. Though it makes no sense to many the old veteran is helped up, oh so carefully, and taken to another place for a time, to be lovingly and carefully restored to fit the service rendered. The once proud warrior is seen to change and remarkably for the age of years.

No longer will it fight in service in the front lines, but its hard-earned medals tell of a time when honest American values were something worth fighting and dying for. In this the last battle is fought, until the bitter end, as the yougnsters come along, tomorrow's soldiers, and say, "Tell us about the war..." and the younger soldier comes and sees, and is reminded he is but one of a long line of American heros, and that there is a reason for it all.

Despite revisionist history and mindless assaults by socialist media, and above and beyond misguided peace demonstrations and confused lies of propaganda there is a war that must be fought. Our freedoms came at the cost of blood and death, amidst the scorn of fools, and today we live somewhat secure thanks to yesterday's heros who taught those of today. There is such a thing as Truth, and it is more precious than diamonds, more costly than gold. Some do not care for it but prefer to attack yesterday's defenders of freedom, when they are not here to stand in defense of self. Senator Joseph Mc Carthy was not afraid to walk into the middle of the front lines, even knowing he would be wounded, maybe killed. If what he fought for was not valid then the last 50 years of American military and government history are a figment of the imagination. Compare the America of Joe's day to the America of today and see just what he was warning us about. God Bless America AND Joseph McCarthy!

Some see an old Power Wagon and point a finger and laugh at the funny looking old truck. Another sees it and feels a tremble, and a tear wells up in the eye and they just can't explain it. I can. It's America. It's a piece of history, nearly alive, and it speaks to any who will listen. We work, we love, and we fight for a country like no other, and the only one worth dying for. The battles are not over and thank God young men still come forward as brave volunteers to defend her in these times of trouble. Will she stand? Will she remain as the shining light to the rest of the world, showing Truth, and Freedom, and Love of fellow man to be the only way to live? Well, do those old Power Wagons still roar and grumble and climb to the top of the next hill?

God Bless America AND Senator Joseph Mc Carthy!

[Gordon Maney]

Jimmie,

I have spent the better part of this day considering your request to delete one of your posts to this thread. I think it is reasonable to imagine that a poster can request that a post be deleted. A problem with that, however, is that subsequent posts in the thread pivot to some degree on the deleted post, which causes the thread to then not make sense to some degree. The question on the part of new readers is, what is missing?

To delete your post is unfair to those whose posts comment on yours. If I choose to delete the entire thread, then that is unfair to the person who started the thread.

I consider other forum sites. Some have off topic forums, even political forums, that become very hot, very ugly, and in literal terms, even obscene. I don't want any of that here. I have a censoring mechanism in place to prevent foul language, and earnestly wish for any reader to report to me any post they feel offensive. I don't even want posts to reflect that an attempt to use foul language was made. I want this forum site to be a place where an enthusiast and wife or kid could sit, read, and enjoy.

I think the name of this forum, friendly conversation, is a suggestion for the behavior of participants. I would like it observed. Ultimately I can delete any post or thread I choose, since I am the site administrator. I would like to not have to do that.

In light of the complications I mention at the beginning, and the new understanding you now have regarding my situation, I think you will understand why I elect to leave your post in place.

[MoparNorm]

I was actually thinking the same thing. Jimmie spoke from his heart, with passion. His desire to retract his statement would be hollow without the original post.

Paul is a big man and I am sure he has read the posts. From the letters that Paul and I exchange off Forum I know that Paul is a thinking, caring, Patriot, who understands that discourse is the true American way. Free Speech is what we are all about. It is not just hype that our founders believed the following, to poorly paraphrase: "...while I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death, your right to say it..."

I urge all of us to think about that, and temper whatever we say with the knowledge that the words we utter in haste may one day come back to haunt us. We have the responsibility to speak our minds, and the minds to speak responsibly.

I respect a mans point of view, regardless if it differs with mine, as long as it is intellectually honest, and not a parrott of some talking points made on TV.

Great Forum, thank you for the space.
Now Back to Dodge....
MN

[chewie]

Just felt compelled to let all of you know that I've printed up these testaments for future reference away from the computer. I'm releived that Gordon did not delete the post from Jimmie, even though it was a little harsh. I, too, have read much of Paul's statements in the past, and have great respect for them, and him as well. He thinks as my Grandpa thinks, and I know no greater compliment. Thank you for the dissertation. May God bless you all as you continue to educate those of us who weren't there.
Chewie

[JimmieD]

Well, gentlemen, and I use that term in the most specific form, as you are gentlemen indeed: so be it.

It was my second thought to not detract from the usual good humor and timbre of this comfortable little place in the world. Though speaking from the heart I feared I had overstepped the bounds of that 'friendly conversation'. Therefore I left it in the hands of Gordon to do as he saw fit, and it is done.

I have tried to make a habit that if I cannot agree with a man that I will disagree agreeably. I exceeded that and became disagreeable. I apologize for letting my temper rule my fingers as they hunt and peck.

As to you Mr. Cook your friends have spoken well of you and readily defended you. I respect their opinions on other things and have listened enough in the past to know somewhat of their hearts. If they say you are a good man that's good enough for me. Therefore I apologize for reacting angrily when you evidently did not mean to strike out at another personally. You would have no way of knowing who I am at all for that matter, let alone my genealogy, so I will take it as stray comments reflecting a viewpoint and nothing else. It's safe to open your mail again ha haha!

The other posts have impressed me deeply as well, but I think I spoke of men like you in my last post, sirs. There always have been few, in the main, but thank God for the few, as they are enough and sufficient for any need! Quite some place, this.....

Thank you.
JimmieD